“We should be extremely humble about our views on complex topics, and the downsides of open borders, if we are wrong, are quite significant”
But this argument cuts both ways. The downsides of closed borders are also quite significant. However, the intervention is closed borders, not open borders; the evidence is on the side of open borders, not closed borders; the vast majority of worl’s movements are not across borders, so free movement is the rule and restricted movement the exception. Why would a “precautionary principle” favor the case for closed borders?
I don’t think your claim that ‘the intervention is closed borders’ is quite right. The status quo is differing levels of restriction of movement between regions and nations that have developed as a result of long historical processes. As the EU demonstrates, it can be as difficult to manage (relatively) open borders as it is to manage (relatively) closed borders. The status quo is that countries and regions choose different levels of migration, and different kinds of migration, to suit their values and needs, therefore the UK, the EU, the US, Canada, China, the Gulf Countries and Australia have all developed hugely different migration policies, while all remaining largely successful as nations over the last few decades.
Arguing for ’100% closed vs. 100% open borders’ gets very abstract and it’s difficult to argue from the facts rather than ideology, because fully open or closed borders are so rare. Although it can be useful to try and nudge the Overton window, the intervention is always going to be a marginal shift in the status quo, but even then, we should be humble about the downsides of marginal shifts either way.
What I meant by “the intervention is closed borders” is that closed borders require action by the state, open borders are the “do nothing” stance. This seems pretty clearly true to me.
I think you are arguing against my point that open borders are the rule and closed borders the exception. It’s true, most countries adopt some form of restriction of movement. But that does not negate the fact that most movement people make (between cities, regions, etc) is not restricted. And as is mentioned in the post, they were not restricted historically either.
Yet one could still argue that “the rule” is this very specific combination which we find in countries today of practically unlimited movement within borders and difficult movement across borders, and then invoke a precautionary principle. But that sort of thinking would imply a rejection of basically any proposed change to the status quo. I don’t think anyone would propose consistently following such a conservative framework for policy implementation and if they did—ironically—I think the result would be a level of policy paralysis which would be disastrous.
Do you favor any policy changes? If you do, can you affirm that it 1) has more evidence in favor of it than migration; and 2) could not conceivably have disastrous results?
I’d say that, in reality, open borders do require action by the state; just like deregulation, it’s something that is often portrayed as ‘inaction’, but actually ends up quite complex in practice. The EU/ Schengen zone, for example, needs to harmonise residency policies and external borders, develop cross-border policing and justice coordination between nations, harmonise workers’ rights and healthcare, all without a common language or a common defence force. Especially as most laws are designed for a world with borders, you would need to change a lot to implement open borders. Of course, you could just completely scrap the border police, visas, and any border checks and see what happens, but I doubt that anyone is seriously suggesting that.
I’m not arguing that we should always invoke a strict precautionary principle based on the status quo, although a mild ‘Chesterton’s Fence’ precautionary principle until we understand the facts on the ground is always prudent. Either way, any change we want to make or campaign for will be marginal, based on a country’s specific circumstances (imagine Canada vs. Israel). I presume you agree that it’s a bit ridiculous to have a hard border between the US and Canada, but I presume you wouldn’t recommend that Israel opens her gates freely to the Arab world.
As for the ‘policy paralysis’ idea, any policy I would suggest or campaign for would be at a far, far smaller scale than open borders. This is both for practical reasons, and out of a precautionary principle. I think it would probably be more ethical if the UK spent 2+% of its budget on foreign aid, for example, but I think that’s both politically impossible and could possibly have adverse consequences (if we cut other parts of the budget), but I’ve contributed to an (unsuccessful) campaign to keep the aid budget from going down from 0.7%, which I’m very confident is the ethically superior choice, and whose adverse consequences would be much smaller.
With migration, we all have a basic understanding of how migration can work and how it can cause harm, therefore any intervention I’d propose would try to harness these benefits and mitigate the harm based on this model. I might dedicate some time or effort to loosening restrictions concerning a certain population (I would be in favour of post-Brexit free movement to the UK by Aussies and Kiwis, for example), but I might also support restricting certain kinds of migration. I’ve read Caplan’s book and a lot of migration literature, and while I’m generally pro- migration at the margins, I don’t think we have anything like good evidence that open borders work, largely because all the evidence is theoretical and/ or based on controlled migration (or migration within a group of similar income countries etc.).
“We should be extremely humble about our views on complex topics, and the downsides of open borders, if we are wrong, are quite significant”
But this argument cuts both ways. The downsides of closed borders are also quite significant. However, the intervention is closed borders, not open borders; the evidence is on the side of open borders, not closed borders; the vast majority of worl’s movements are not across borders, so free movement is the rule and restricted movement the exception. Why would a “precautionary principle” favor the case for closed borders?
I don’t think your claim that ‘the intervention is closed borders’ is quite right. The status quo is differing levels of restriction of movement between regions and nations that have developed as a result of long historical processes. As the EU demonstrates, it can be as difficult to manage (relatively) open borders as it is to manage (relatively) closed borders. The status quo is that countries and regions choose different levels of migration, and different kinds of migration, to suit their values and needs, therefore the UK, the EU, the US, Canada, China, the Gulf Countries and Australia have all developed hugely different migration policies, while all remaining largely successful as nations over the last few decades.
Arguing for ’100% closed vs. 100% open borders’ gets very abstract and it’s difficult to argue from the facts rather than ideology, because fully open or closed borders are so rare. Although it can be useful to try and nudge the Overton window, the intervention is always going to be a marginal shift in the status quo, but even then, we should be humble about the downsides of marginal shifts either way.
What I meant by “the intervention is closed borders” is that closed borders require action by the state, open borders are the “do nothing” stance. This seems pretty clearly true to me.
I think you are arguing against my point that open borders are the rule and closed borders the exception. It’s true, most countries adopt some form of restriction of movement. But that does not negate the fact that most movement people make (between cities, regions, etc) is not restricted. And as is mentioned in the post, they were not restricted historically either.
Yet one could still argue that “the rule” is this very specific combination which we find in countries today of practically unlimited movement within borders and difficult movement across borders, and then invoke a precautionary principle. But that sort of thinking would imply a rejection of basically any proposed change to the status quo. I don’t think anyone would propose consistently following such a conservative framework for policy implementation and if they did—ironically—I think the result would be a level of policy paralysis which would be disastrous.
Do you favor any policy changes? If you do, can you affirm that it 1) has more evidence in favor of it than migration; and 2) could not conceivably have disastrous results?
I’d say that, in reality, open borders do require action by the state; just like deregulation, it’s something that is often portrayed as ‘inaction’, but actually ends up quite complex in practice. The EU/ Schengen zone, for example, needs to harmonise residency policies and external borders, develop cross-border policing and justice coordination between nations, harmonise workers’ rights and healthcare, all without a common language or a common defence force. Especially as most laws are designed for a world with borders, you would need to change a lot to implement open borders. Of course, you could just completely scrap the border police, visas, and any border checks and see what happens, but I doubt that anyone is seriously suggesting that.
I’m not arguing that we should always invoke a strict precautionary principle based on the status quo, although a mild ‘Chesterton’s Fence’ precautionary principle until we understand the facts on the ground is always prudent. Either way, any change we want to make or campaign for will be marginal, based on a country’s specific circumstances (imagine Canada vs. Israel). I presume you agree that it’s a bit ridiculous to have a hard border between the US and Canada, but I presume you wouldn’t recommend that Israel opens her gates freely to the Arab world.
As for the ‘policy paralysis’ idea, any policy I would suggest or campaign for would be at a far, far smaller scale than open borders. This is both for practical reasons, and out of a precautionary principle. I think it would probably be more ethical if the UK spent 2+% of its budget on foreign aid, for example, but I think that’s both politically impossible and could possibly have adverse consequences (if we cut other parts of the budget), but I’ve contributed to an (unsuccessful) campaign to keep the aid budget from going down from 0.7%, which I’m very confident is the ethically superior choice, and whose adverse consequences would be much smaller.
With migration, we all have a basic understanding of how migration can work and how it can cause harm, therefore any intervention I’d propose would try to harness these benefits and mitigate the harm based on this model. I might dedicate some time or effort to loosening restrictions concerning a certain population (I would be in favour of post-Brexit free movement to the UK by Aussies and Kiwis, for example), but I might also support restricting certain kinds of migration. I’ve read Caplan’s book and a lot of migration literature, and while I’m generally pro- migration at the margins, I don’t think we have anything like good evidence that open borders work, largely because all the evidence is theoretical and/ or based on controlled migration (or migration within a group of similar income countries etc.).