I have made all kinds of claims in this post, some of which may be seen as wild, reckless, unfounded, unargued-for, and so on. Certainly I’m not doing very much hedging and qualification. The really remarkable thing that communities interested in this kind of human development have discovered is that people who work at meditation long enough will reliably and regularly say the same kinds of things, in the same order; and people who have stumbled onto the exercises that lead to this kind of development outside of these communities will also, reliably and regularly, say the same kinds of things (although some translation between cultural frameworks may have to go on first).
Scientologists report experiencing new levels of peace and self-control, too. Of course, illiterate Catholic kids from remote villages have reported ecstatic visions similar to those achieved by ancient mystics. People have a tendency to report the expected, approved, results from the sacred rituals of their religious clique. I wouldn’t expect Buddhism to be an exception.
You quoted me talking about people outside these communities (I.e.people for whom neither Buddhism nor meditation have any special cultural significance) but appear to have ignored it in your response.
That there is a belief-independent similarity in people’s experiences was my point!
I don’t really know how to respond to your comment other than to re-emphasize what I wrote and you quoted.
Sorry if I wasn’t being clear. What I am saying is that the people who “stumble onto the exercises” are being treated as culture-naive which is a big assumption, particularly since they were talking with other Buddhists like yourself, and their experiences were being translated into your “cultural framework”. That was the reason I mentioned “illiterate Catholic kids from remote villages who have reported ecstatic visions similar to those achieved by ancient mystics.” There was an assumption that they were naive about the expected experiences of the culturally approved experience, when they in fact weren’t.
I never claimed to be a Buddhist and I explicitly disclaimed the value of trying to see my post as an instance of Buddhism (near the top), so I don’t know why you’ve called me one.
I prefer to be thought of as someone sharing what they know, rather than an adherent of some system.
“stumble onto” could mean a number of things. Effective meditation exercises need not be esoteric, and people can and do find them just by using their minds in certain uncommon ways. Sometimes that’s just what happens, and then they search out other people or groups who they imagine might be able to tell them something about the experiences they’ve had. Cases like those are the really suggestive ones.
Scientologists report experiencing new levels of peace and self-control, too. Of course, illiterate Catholic kids from remote villages have reported ecstatic visions similar to those achieved by ancient mystics. People have a tendency to report the expected, approved, results from the sacred rituals of their religious clique. I wouldn’t expect Buddhism to be an exception.
You quoted me talking about people outside these communities (I.e.people for whom neither Buddhism nor meditation have any special cultural significance) but appear to have ignored it in your response.
That there is a belief-independent similarity in people’s experiences was my point!
I don’t really know how to respond to your comment other than to re-emphasize what I wrote and you quoted.
Sorry if I wasn’t being clear. What I am saying is that the people who “stumble onto the exercises” are being treated as culture-naive which is a big assumption, particularly since they were talking with other Buddhists like yourself, and their experiences were being translated into your “cultural framework”. That was the reason I mentioned “illiterate Catholic kids from remote villages who have reported ecstatic visions similar to those achieved by ancient mystics.” There was an assumption that they were naive about the expected experiences of the culturally approved experience, when they in fact weren’t.
I never claimed to be a Buddhist and I explicitly disclaimed the value of trying to see my post as an instance of Buddhism (near the top), so I don’t know why you’ve called me one.
I prefer to be thought of as someone sharing what they know, rather than an adherent of some system.
“stumble onto” could mean a number of things. Effective meditation exercises need not be esoteric, and people can and do find them just by using their minds in certain uncommon ways. Sometimes that’s just what happens, and then they search out other people or groups who they imagine might be able to tell them something about the experiences they’ve had. Cases like those are the really suggestive ones.
Upvoted for the real-world demonstration of “one man’s modus ponens is another man’s modus tollens.”