I’d heard of him, of course. I’d never followed up. Naïvely, I didn’t think I needed to.
I’m basing my opinion of the penalty for being thought to associate with him based on a number of posts he made that were linked in that thread. The one about rape is the one that is likely to stick with me,
The creepy face he makes in the picture doesn’t help.
To the sort of people with whom I aspire to keep company, insensitivity on certain topics signals lack of status, a lack of class.
In coarser terms, he stepped in it. Then he went back to step in it again. When his steps were criticized he defended the quality of his shoes.
I don’t want to walk on the carpets he wiped it on.
To the sort of people with whom I aspire to keep company,
I think a question you should be asking yourself is why are you aspiring to keep company with people who would insist that you not associate with a website merely because it associates with someone who has politically incorrect ideas?
I suppose there might be success to be had, here. There might be network opportunities. There might be opportunities for friendship and other things I value.
But the bar to entry is too high. I don’t have a strong academic background. I was once close to math. I’d hold up two cross fingers and say, “Like this.” But years, decades have come between us. My only education in philosophy is by proxy.
I don’t mean to paint a picture without hope, I’m a bright guy. I could maybe catch up if I applied myself, if I worked at it, if I let some other things slide for a while.
I just mean to turn it around. I ask myself why I keep company with people who don’t recognize how socially toxic it is to marginalize the suffering of rape victims. I ask myself if it is enough that they are one of many groups who espouse a form of self-improvement. Could it ever be enough?
I suppose it’s because the author of HP&tMoR is here, and might respond to someone’s post on the topic. And I suppose it helps, too that no one has to know I’m here, participating.
You guys really fail on the outreach. I hope that one day each and every one of you that hurts this community in that way understands the role you play in undoing something nice that could have been something beautiful. I admit to being evil, and am unashamed to look forward to your suffering.
Um, LW is growing very well, thank you. In fact at this point I’m more worried about the ‘unwilling to consider controversial ideas due to signaling’ failure mode than the ‘stop growing due to being too controversial’ failure mode.
You guys really fail on the outreach. I hope that one day each and every one of you that hurts this community in that way understands the role you play in undoing something nice that could have been something beautiful. I admit to being evil, and am unashamed to look forward to your suffering.
On the contrary, I’m already here. The decision I shared, that stirred up so much hostility, wasn’t that I was leaving. It’s that I wasn’t going to tell other people about Less Wrong.
Only one of the dozen or so people I call friends in meatspace identifies as ‘evil.’ None of the scores of friendly acquaintances I have do. It’s pretty uncommon.
No, what “stirred up so much hostility” was you’re suggestion that we censor people for being “unmarketable”.
Thanks. It’s rather obvious once you point it out. Not the first time my self-centeredness has blinded me to the real reason people were cross with me, won’t be the last.
Censorship is necessary. The poison that kills your garden and undermines your movement won’t always be the new blood or the outsider. Sometimes it will be someone you respect who steps out of bounds.
That post was about deleting people who refuse to engage in rational argument, not deleting posts that use rational argument in ways that are “unmarketable” as you put it.
Let’s put it this way, would you also suggest we delete all the posts critical of religion because it also puts of a lot of people?
That post was about deleting people who refuse to engage in rational argument, not deleting posts that use rational argument in ways that are “unmarketable” as you put it.
Let’s put it this way, would you also suggest we delete all the posts critical of religion because it also puts of a lot of people?
the utility of censorship is not exclusive to the situations described in that post.
But in the end, no. This conversation didn’t start when I issued a call to action, but when I expressed a difficult decision I had made for myself. I didn’t know that people were reading it as a directive until someone pointed that out.
Anyway, it’s far too late to change: that rape article is over two years old. “Better late than never” doesn’t mean that late is always good enough. In this case, it’s definitely not.
In a world with wishes—but where I didn’t immediately wish for a world without wishes—maybe I’d wish that Less Wrong would be image conscious enough to distance itself from people who unapologetically marginalize the suffering of rape victims, maybe not. But the call I get to make is whether or not to facilitate the process by which my friends and the people with whom I would like to be friends forget that I have any contact with Less Wrong. It is not whether or not to facilitate the process by which Less Wrong rehabilitates its status as a haven for creeps, creep enablers, or creep apologists.
In a world with wishes—but where I didn’t immediately wish for a world without wishes—maybe I’d wish that Less Wrong would be image conscious enough to distance itself from people who unapologetically marginalize the suffering of rape victims, maybe not. But the call I get to make is whether or not to facilitate the process by which my friends and the people with whom I would like to be friends forget that I have any contact with Less Wrong. It is not whether or not to facilitate the process by which Less Wrong rehabilitates its status as a haven for creeps, creep enablers, or creep apologists.
This ad hominem filled screed, is an example of the kind of refusal to engage in rational argument that is worthy of censorship.
I just mean to turn it around. I ask myself why I keep company with people who don’t recognize how socially toxic it is to marginalize the suffering of rape victims. I ask myself if it is enough that they are one of many groups who espouse a form of self-improvement. Could it ever be enough?
I think that in certain cases he does know he comes across as a jerk, but he just doesn’t care. (Not sure about the rape post specifically.)
The vast majority of Less Wrong users are NPCs. They claim to have learned and internalized all of the ~rationality skills~ discussed here, but none of them have anything to protect, and for some reason a large number of uplifted humans all care exclusively about the goals of the celebrities here. Less Wrong is a horrible community filled with middle-class white men who hate women.
But occasionally, someone posts something useful. You seem like you have a goal, or at least a thing to protect; don’t let sub-human scum like that keep you from that, in any way.
Using an RSS reader helps; you can see the main post without seeing the comments, and you can pass over the circlejerking that takes up most of the space.
Thank you for the sympathetic perspective. But I do what to clarify that am not the crusader. I am one who sees the crusade coming and gets out of the way.
I have been defending a decision I made, here. It hasn’t been my convictions about good and evil or right and wrong, but rather about prudence and discretion.
I will admit that I let it get personal, but all I’ve been defending is myself.
He only stepped in it because its a hot-button political topic, much like abortion. The chaotic and frankly insane responses to his posts makes me suspect that most of the readers are completely unable to divorce political and gut moral feelings from internal analytical processing.
As an experiment, ask yourself how many dollars a rape is worth, how many dollars should be paid to prevent one. I suspect many of the posters in that thread will simply refuse to give a numerical answer. This is a clear indicator of mindkill.
Or an issue of how most humans are not willing to signal extreme utilitarianism because it is used easily to portray people as cold and hard. Moreover, most humans don’t distinguish between “things I say for signaling” and “things I say because I believe them.” So there are a lot of reasonable explanations for this without it being mindkilling. Also, some people really are just deontologists. Not being willing to answer such a question makes a lot more sense if one has a deontological rule that rape is always bad and wrong.
There’s also the issue that talking about certain things in public in a particular way (and the internet counts as public) causes actual mental harm to people.
He only stepped in it because its a hot-button political topic, much like abortion.
When someone is controversial for the sake of being controversial, it would be foolish for them to not anticipate consequences like no longer being accepted in mainstream company. Or ever company one or two standard deviations of ‘daring’ away from the mainstream in some cases.
I get that it take bravery to do this kind of thing. (Or it could take foolishness. I’m not saying that’s what happened here, but I wouldn’t tell someone who believed to to be so that I had strong reason to believe they were wrong: I don’t know the guy.) But being brave isn’t a free pass to not deal with the consequences.
And sometimes those consequences mean you aren’t able to do as much good (or as much whatever you want) as you otherwise might.
He took that risk in writing it. This site is taking a risk in continuing to associate with him. I am making the choice not to take the risk of reminding anyone not involve in Less Wrong that I read stuff here and sometimes post a trifle bit.
As an experiment, ask yourself how many dollars a rape is worth, how many dollars should be paid to prevent one. I suspect many of the posters in that thread will simply refuse to give a numerical answer. This is a clear indicator of mindkill.
Actually, thinking you can simplify and generalize human behavior down to rules like that is a clear indicator of mindkill.
Let me break it down differently, not like anyone else is going to see this since they’re all in the new thread.
Person A is hurt because their authority to control sexual access to person B is violated.
Person C is hurt because their authority to control sexual access to themselves is violated.
Claiming equivalency between the injury to person A and the injury to person C is very insensitive. Hinting that person A’s suffering is greater takes a few steps further. It’s kind of dumb, too.
The people I’m talking about don’t shy away from rape. They might have, at one point, but one of them was a student to Craig Palmer, who has been rather vilified for writing a frank book on the topic. Yeah, it’s an anecdote, but it’s in answer to your anecdote for whatever that’s worth.
I get that it take bravery to do this kind of thing. (Or it could take foolishness. I’m not saying that’s what happened here, but I wouldn’t tell someone who believed to to be so that I had strong reason to believe they were wrong: I don’t know the guy.) But being brave isn’t a free pass to not deal with the consequences.
As far as I know Robin Hanson never uses “bravery” to justify himself, that was an argument attributed to him by loserthree as a way to justify shutting him up.
I won’t address the first part of your post; I think it is largely correct. We are, after all, responsible for our own actions.
However, for the second part, I don’t think that anyone is even remotely trying to claim the equivalency you’re describing above. It’s most definitely a straw man argument.
If nothing else, the first claim should read more properly as “Person A is hurt because they have become legally responsible for a new human being and half of all associated costs and maintenance for that new human being for a period of no less than 21 years, in a situation where person A is not responsible for the creation of said new human being.”
After all, we are responsible for our own actions. Not necessarily those of someone else.
(Side note: the ‘control of sexual access’ part doesn’t make any sense, other than to construct a strawman. I don’t understand at all why you felt that to be a legitimate argument or position.)
If nothing else, the first claim should read more properly as “Person A is hurt because they have become legally responsible for a new human being and half of all associated costs and maintenance for that new human being for a period of no less than 21 years, in a situation where person A is not responsible for the creation of said new human being.”
Comparing the best-case scenario outcome of one thing with the worst-case scenario outcome of another thing sounds disingenuous to me.
If you (generic “you”) must compare being raped to being cuckolded, you don’t get to compare the least bad case of the former (“gentle, silent rape” of an unconscious woman leading to no physical injury, no STD, no pregnancy, and no memory) with one of the worst possible outcomes for the latter (your wife gets pregnant, gives birth to a child, and you never find out it’s not yours until you’ve spent a bajillion dollars).
(I wish I could downvote myself.)
Edit: from the upvotes and the asterisk, it looks like I had already submitted the comment hours ago and was editing it, as opposed to being composing it in the first place. I don’t remember what the original submitted version looked like.
I’d heard of him, of course. I’d never followed up. Naïvely, I didn’t think I needed to.
I’m basing my opinion of the penalty for being thought to associate with him based on a number of posts he made that were linked in that thread. The one about rape is the one that is likely to stick with me,
The creepy face he makes in the picture doesn’t help.
To the sort of people with whom I aspire to keep company, insensitivity on certain topics signals lack of status, a lack of class.
In coarser terms, he stepped in it. Then he went back to step in it again. When his steps were criticized he defended the quality of his shoes.
I don’t want to walk on the carpets he wiped it on.
Disliking Hanson is not about.…
I think a question you should be asking yourself is why are you aspiring to keep company with people who would insist that you not associate with a website merely because it associates with someone who has politically incorrect ideas?
I suppose there might be success to be had, here. There might be network opportunities. There might be opportunities for friendship and other things I value.
But the bar to entry is too high. I don’t have a strong academic background. I was once close to math. I’d hold up two cross fingers and say, “Like this.” But years, decades have come between us. My only education in philosophy is by proxy.
I don’t mean to paint a picture without hope, I’m a bright guy. I could maybe catch up if I applied myself, if I worked at it, if I let some other things slide for a while.
I just mean to turn it around. I ask myself why I keep company with people who don’t recognize how socially toxic it is to marginalize the suffering of rape victims. I ask myself if it is enough that they are one of many groups who espouse a form of self-improvement. Could it ever be enough?
I suppose it’s because the author of HP&tMoR is here, and might respond to someone’s post on the topic. And I suppose it helps, too that no one has to know I’m here, participating.
You guys really fail on the outreach. I hope that one day each and every one of you that hurts this community in that way understands the role you play in undoing something nice that could have been something beautiful. I admit to being evil, and am unashamed to look forward to your suffering.
Um, LW is growing very well, thank you. In fact at this point I’m more worried about the ‘unwilling to consider controversial ideas due to signaling’ failure mode than the ‘stop growing due to being too controversial’ failure mode.
Or perhaps in this case we excel at screening.
On the contrary, I’m already here. The decision I shared, that stirred up so much hostility, wasn’t that I was leaving. It’s that I wasn’t going to tell other people about Less Wrong.
Only one of the dozen or so people I call friends in meatspace identifies as ‘evil.’ None of the scores of friendly acquaintances I have do. It’s pretty uncommon.
No, what “stirred up so much hostility” was you’re suggestion that we censor people for being “unmarketable”.
Thanks. It’s rather obvious once you point it out. Not the first time my self-centeredness has blinded me to the real reason people were cross with me, won’t be the last.
Censorship is necessary. The poison that kills your garden and undermines your movement won’t always be the new blood or the outsider. Sometimes it will be someone you respect who steps out of bounds.
That post was about deleting people who refuse to engage in rational argument, not deleting posts that use rational argument in ways that are “unmarketable” as you put it.
Let’s put it this way, would you also suggest we delete all the posts critical of religion because it also puts of a lot of people?
the utility of censorship is not exclusive to the situations described in that post.
But in the end, no. This conversation didn’t start when I issued a call to action, but when I expressed a difficult decision I had made for myself. I didn’t know that people were reading it as a directive until someone pointed that out.
Anyway, it’s far too late to change: that rape article is over two years old. “Better late than never” doesn’t mean that late is always good enough. In this case, it’s definitely not.
In a world with wishes—but where I didn’t immediately wish for a world without wishes—maybe I’d wish that Less Wrong would be image conscious enough to distance itself from people who unapologetically marginalize the suffering of rape victims, maybe not. But the call I get to make is whether or not to facilitate the process by which my friends and the people with whom I would like to be friends forget that I have any contact with Less Wrong. It is not whether or not to facilitate the process by which Less Wrong rehabilitates its status as a haven for creeps, creep enablers, or creep apologists.
This ad hominem filled screed, is an example of the kind of refusal to engage in rational argument that is worthy of censorship.
I think that in certain cases he does know he comes across as a jerk, but he just doesn’t care. (Not sure about the rape post specifically.)
The vast majority of Less Wrong users are NPCs. They claim to have learned and internalized all of the ~rationality skills~ discussed here, but none of them have anything to protect, and for some reason a large number of uplifted humans all care exclusively about the goals of the celebrities here. Less Wrong is a horrible community filled with middle-class white men who hate women.
But occasionally, someone posts something useful. You seem like you have a goal, or at least a thing to protect; don’t let sub-human scum like that keep you from that, in any way.
Using an RSS reader helps; you can see the main post without seeing the comments, and you can pass over the circlejerking that takes up most of the space.
Thank you for providing the subhuman masses an example of warmth and love. I am truly touched by your radiating compassion.
Thank you for the sympathetic perspective. But I do what to clarify that am not the crusader. I am one who sees the crusade coming and gets out of the way.
I have been defending a decision I made, here. It hasn’t been my convictions about good and evil or right and wrong, but rather about prudence and discretion.
I will admit that I let it get personal, but all I’ve been defending is myself.
He only stepped in it because its a hot-button political topic, much like abortion. The chaotic and frankly insane responses to his posts makes me suspect that most of the readers are completely unable to divorce political and gut moral feelings from internal analytical processing.
As an experiment, ask yourself how many dollars a rape is worth, how many dollars should be paid to prevent one. I suspect many of the posters in that thread will simply refuse to give a numerical answer. This is a clear indicator of mindkill.
Or an issue of how most humans are not willing to signal extreme utilitarianism because it is used easily to portray people as cold and hard. Moreover, most humans don’t distinguish between “things I say for signaling” and “things I say because I believe them.” So there are a lot of reasonable explanations for this without it being mindkilling. Also, some people really are just deontologists. Not being willing to answer such a question makes a lot more sense if one has a deontological rule that rape is always bad and wrong.
There’s also the issue that talking about certain things in public in a particular way (and the internet counts as public) causes actual mental harm to people.
When someone is controversial for the sake of being controversial, it would be foolish for them to not anticipate consequences like no longer being accepted in mainstream company. Or ever company one or two standard deviations of ‘daring’ away from the mainstream in some cases.
I get that it take bravery to do this kind of thing. (Or it could take foolishness. I’m not saying that’s what happened here, but I wouldn’t tell someone who believed to to be so that I had strong reason to believe they were wrong: I don’t know the guy.) But being brave isn’t a free pass to not deal with the consequences.
And sometimes those consequences mean you aren’t able to do as much good (or as much whatever you want) as you otherwise might.
He took that risk in writing it. This site is taking a risk in continuing to associate with him. I am making the choice not to take the risk of reminding anyone not involve in Less Wrong that I read stuff here and sometimes post a trifle bit.
Actually, thinking you can simplify and generalize human behavior down to rules like that is a clear indicator of mindkill.
Let me break it down differently, not like anyone else is going to see this since they’re all in the new thread.
Person A is hurt because their authority to control sexual access to person B is violated.
Person C is hurt because their authority to control sexual access to themselves is violated.
Claiming equivalency between the injury to person A and the injury to person C is very insensitive. Hinting that person A’s suffering is greater takes a few steps further. It’s kind of dumb, too.
The people I’m talking about don’t shy away from rape. They might have, at one point, but one of them was a student to Craig Palmer, who has been rather vilified for writing a frank book on the topic. Yeah, it’s an anecdote, but it’s in answer to your anecdote for whatever that’s worth.
See also
As far as I know Robin Hanson never uses “bravery” to justify himself, that was an argument attributed to him by loserthree as a way to justify shutting him up.
I won’t address the first part of your post; I think it is largely correct. We are, after all, responsible for our own actions.
However, for the second part, I don’t think that anyone is even remotely trying to claim the equivalency you’re describing above. It’s most definitely a straw man argument.
If nothing else, the first claim should read more properly as “Person A is hurt because they have become legally responsible for a new human being and half of all associated costs and maintenance for that new human being for a period of no less than 21 years, in a situation where person A is not responsible for the creation of said new human being.”
After all, we are responsible for our own actions. Not necessarily those of someone else.
(Side note: the ‘control of sexual access’ part doesn’t make any sense, other than to construct a strawman. I don’t understand at all why you felt that to be a legitimate argument or position.)
Comparing the best-case scenario outcome of one thing with the worst-case scenario outcome of another thing sounds disingenuous to me.
What does this have to do with the quoted point?
Trigger warning: comparisons involving rape
If you (generic “you”) must compare being raped to being cuckolded, you don’t get to compare the least bad case of the former (“gentle, silent rape” of an unconscious woman leading to no physical injury, no STD, no pregnancy, and no memory) with one of the worst possible outcomes for the latter (your wife gets pregnant, gives birth to a child, and you never find out it’s not yours until you’ve spent a bajillion dollars).
(I wish I could downvote myself.)
Edit: from the upvotes and the asterisk, it looks like I had already submitted the comment hours ago and was editing it, as opposed to being composing it in the first place. I don’t remember what the original submitted version looked like.