There is literally no disagreement over whether ‘unjustified killing’ is ‘justified’.
In so far as that statement is true it is a tautology akin to saying “Everyone agrees that the not A is not A”. If one tries to make it non-tautologous by say referring to specific subclasses of killing, then one is going to run into problems like sociopaths.
There is widespread disagreement over which acts constitute murder.
“Everyone agrees that ~A is ~A” is not a tautology, any more than “Everyone agrees that second-order logic is sound.” is a tautology.
“Unjustified killing” (Murder) is already the intersection of acts which are killing and acts which are not justified. The problem is that different people have different sets of “Acts which are justified” and “Acts which are morally wrong”.
In the legal sense, murder is killing which is not legally justified.
Can you provide a citation? I was under the impression that legal killing is not considered murder, even if it is not legally justified. For example, a judge might sentence a criminal to death for unjust reasons, but that would not be considered murder, even though it could be a sort of wrongful death. Or is there a more technical sense of “legally justified” at play?
The criminal code defines things very explicitly, even though sometimes circularly. For example, the USC defines murder: “Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.
The major distinction is from manslaughter: “Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice.”
Manslaughter is defined in such a way as that it is not an act, but rather either the unintended result of negligence or a reaction which does not constitute a decision.
The moral sense of murder includes many things not included in the legal sense, such as the execution of an innocent person.
There is disagreement over whether it even makes sense to call things ‘justified’ or ‘unjustified’, in addition to disagreement over whether actions in general can ever be ‘justified’ or ‘unjustified’.
I agree that if one where to concede that something is P, it would be very difficult for him to also assert that ~P, but I don’t really see how that’s relevant, since, as I said, there is in fact disagreement over whether killing can ever be unjustified, is ever unjustified, or whether that word even means what most people think it means.
Full Disclosure: I’m still not sure I really understand how definitions and differing opinions on definitions are treated and handled here at LW, so if you could enlighten me in this area in general, I’d really appreciate it.
That being said, I’m positive I’ve seen people use the word murder even when they believed the act was justified. Obviously, had they used the words ‘unjustified killing’, there would be very little room for argument, but be that as it may, I’m still not positive that ‘murder’ has to be / is usually defined as ‘unjustified killing’.
Further, I think it is a fairly consistent position to not believe that things can be ‘unjustified’, define ‘murder’ as something like ‘killing without explicit consent of victim’ and believe in murder at the same time; I’m not seeing anything wrong with holding that kind of position.
I’m still not sure I really understand how definitions and differing opinions on definitions are treated and handled here at LW, so if you could enlighten me in this area in general, I’d really appreciate it.
Ideally, the sides of a debate figure out whether there is a substantive or definitional dispute. Personally, I think there is value in figuring out the most useful definition for a particular conversation, but I’m not sure if that is the local consensus.
There is pretty widespread consensus that arguing by definition is not productive in figuring out what is true.
Full Disclosure: I’m still not sure I really understand how definitions and differing opinions on definitions are treated and handled here at LW, so if you could enlighten me in this area in general, I’d really appreciate it.
The standard approach is to:
notice you’re having a definitional dispute
find / make up new words to refer to the two definitions under dispute
go back to the substantive discussion, without threat of equivocation
Ah, so I guess my dispute is not with him, rather with Peterdjones. I just don’t believe that ‘murder’, as Decius is defining it, ever happens. Also, how this is at all relevant to the matter we were discussing earlier is still somewhat unclear to me.
I’m positive I’ve seen people use the word murder even when they believed the act was justified.
That’s a pretty clear case of using the word wrong, unless you’re getting into really fine distinctions. If you spot someone doing that, it’s probably worth pointing out that most people would be confused by using the word that way.
In a particular context, you might want to make use of the distinction between unjustified killing and unlawful killing, in which case murder would be the latter.
That’s a pretty clear case of using the word wrong [...] it’s probably worth pointing out that most people would be confused by using the word that way.
I’m certainly not confused when someone uses ‘murder’ without meaning ‘unjustified killing’. Is this just me?
There is literally no disagreement over whether ‘unjustified killing’ is ‘justified’.
There is widespread disagreement over which acts constitute murder.
In so far as that statement is true it is a tautology akin to saying “Everyone agrees that the not A is not A”. If one tries to make it non-tautologous by say referring to specific subclasses of killing, then one is going to run into problems like sociopaths.
Yet that’s the entire crux of the issue.
“Everyone agrees that ~A is ~A” is not a tautology, any more than “Everyone agrees that second-order logic is sound.” is a tautology.
“Unjustified killing” (Murder) is already the intersection of acts which are killing and acts which are not justified. The problem is that different people have different sets of “Acts which are justified” and “Acts which are morally wrong”.
I don’t think you and JoshuaZ are having a substantive disagreement.
If you want to be pedantic, note that murder generally means unlawful or extralegal killing, not unjustified killing.
In the legal sense, murder is killing which is not legally justified. In the moral sense, murder is killing which is not morally justified.
There are certainly disagreements as to whether violations of any law are inherently immoral.
Can you provide a citation? I was under the impression that legal killing is not considered murder, even if it is not legally justified. For example, a judge might sentence a criminal to death for unjust reasons, but that would not be considered murder, even though it could be a sort of wrongful death. Or is there a more technical sense of “legally justified” at play?
The criminal code defines things very explicitly, even though sometimes circularly. For example, the USC defines murder: “Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.
The major distinction is from manslaughter: “Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice.”
Manslaughter is defined in such a way as that it is not an act, but rather either the unintended result of negligence or a reaction which does not constitute a decision.
The moral sense of murder includes many things not included in the legal sense, such as the execution of an innocent person.
There is disagreement over whether it even makes sense to call things ‘justified’ or ‘unjustified’, in addition to disagreement over whether actions in general can ever be ‘justified’ or ‘unjustified’.
I agree that if one where to concede that something is P, it would be very difficult for him to also assert that ~P, but I don’t really see how that’s relevant, since, as I said, there is in fact disagreement over whether killing can ever be unjustified, is ever unjustified, or whether that word even means what most people think it means.
‘Murder’ is defined as ‘unjustified killing’.
Killing is not always murder.
If one believes that acts cannot be ‘unjustified’, one does not believe in murder. (In the same sense as ‘I don’t believe in telepathy.’)
Full Disclosure: I’m still not sure I really understand how definitions and differing opinions on definitions are treated and handled here at LW, so if you could enlighten me in this area in general, I’d really appreciate it.
That being said, I’m positive I’ve seen people use the word murder even when they believed the act was justified. Obviously, had they used the words ‘unjustified killing’, there would be very little room for argument, but be that as it may, I’m still not positive that ‘murder’ has to be / is usually defined as ‘unjustified killing’.
Further, I think it is a fairly consistent position to not believe that things can be ‘unjustified’, define ‘murder’ as something like ‘killing without explicit consent of victim’ and believe in murder at the same time; I’m not seeing anything wrong with holding that kind of position.
Ideally, the sides of a debate figure out whether there is a substantive or definitional dispute. Personally, I think there is value in figuring out the most useful definition for a particular conversation, but I’m not sure if that is the local consensus.
There is pretty widespread consensus that arguing by definition is not productive in figuring out what is true.
The standard approach is to:
notice you’re having a definitional dispute
find / make up new words to refer to the two definitions under dispute
go back to the substantive discussion, without threat of equivocation
In your opinion, am I having a definitional dispute with people in this thread, or are we disagreeing about something else?
Yes, starting here. Decius is just noting that murder means “unjustified killing” and so claims about the wrongness of murder are tautological.
Ah, so I guess my dispute is not with him, rather with Peterdjones. I just don’t believe that ‘murder’, as Decius is defining it, ever happens. Also, how this is at all relevant to the matter we were discussing earlier is still somewhat unclear to me.
Anyway, thank you, this has been most helpful.
That’s a pretty clear case of using the word wrong, unless you’re getting into really fine distinctions. If you spot someone doing that, it’s probably worth pointing out that most people would be confused by using the word that way.
In a particular context, you might want to make use of the distinction between unjustified killing and unlawful killing, in which case murder would be the latter.
I’m certainly not confused when someone uses ‘murder’ without meaning ‘unjustified killing’. Is this just me?
EDIT: See the discussion me and thomblake just had