For example, would you agree that members of stone-age tribes are literally schizophrenics by DSM criteria and would be diagnosed as such by competent psychiatrists?
This reminds me of debates about IQ, whether stone-age tribes would be diagnosed as mentally retarded.
Seems like on one hand, if we could use a time machine and somehow convince the stone-age people to do our IQ tests, they would probably score low. On the other hand, they wouldn’t be the same kind of people as a random selection of people who have the same value of IQ today. I guess the conclusion is that there are many factors that can lower the IQ, some one of them would be problematic in the ancient environment, and some of them not.
Analogically, the idea that the members of stone-age tribes would be diagnosed as mentally ill using today’s criteria seems quite unsurprising to me. And analogically, there could be various variants of schizophrenia, some of them widely present among the stone-age tribes, and some of them absent. I have no idea whether the anti-psychotic drugs would target those historic variants.
Is meditation nothing but teaching yourself schizophrenia?
It seems like the goal of the most serious meditators is to have hallucinations of your previous reincarnations, which is supposed to give you the hard evidence that your faith is the true one. (Conveniently ignoring the alternative explanation that your faith may actually have shaped the content of the hallucinations.)
But most people in our culture seem to meditate merely as a way of relaxation. That means, not giving it enough time and effort to make the hallucinations appear. (Literature seems to suggests that it is usually necessary to spend weeks meditating several hours daily to achieve the “enlightenment”.)
Were all mystics throughout the ages just mentally ill people?
Well, unless you believe in the supernatural, I am curious what other explanation there is...
(Connotational disclaimer: “Mentally ill” is not the same thing as “dysfunctional at everything”. Just because a person has weird hallucinations once in a while, they can still be a great person, even a great scientist.)
I’m talking about people living now. Amazon Indian tribes, Andamanese, maybe remote communities of Bushmen, Aboriginals, etc.
the idea that the members of stone-age tribes would be diagnosed as mentally ill using today’s criteria seems quite unsurprising to me.
The question was much more specific: diagnosed with schizophrenia by DSM standards. And should we medicate them? The life of schizophrenics noticeably improves when they take their drugs.
It seems like the goal of the most serious meditators is to have hallucinations of your previous reincarnations
I don’t know about that. Meditation is not limited to the Hinduist or Buddhist religious context. And, by the way, enlightenment is usually thought to require many years of meditation, not weeks.
Amazon Indian tribes, Andamanese, maybe remote communities of Bushmen, Aboriginals, etc.
I remember reading somewhere that Incas received commands from statues when the Spanish conquerred them. Not sure how reliable this information is, but I would count “hearing voices from statues” among the symptoms of schizophrenia, if that’s true.
diagnosed with schizophrenia by DSM standards. And should we medicate them? The life of schizophrenics noticeably improves when they take their drugs.
The map (even a high-status one such as DSM) is not the territory. Asking “are they schizophrenic according to DSM” and “are they the kind of schizophrenic who is unable to function normally in their daily life” are two different questions. If someone hears voices which are completely benign, I’d say “live and let live”. It’s only the voices that make people cause harm to themselves and the others that should be treated by medication.
In the bicameral era, I can imagine that most people heard the relatively benign voices, and only a few ones heard the harmful voices. In other words, the actual problem of schizophrenia could be not hearing voices per se, but having those voices become dangerous. (Or hearing the voices so often that it makes normal functioning difficult; but how much that is would probably differ in the ancient times and now, especially when it’s a social stigma now.)
The life of schizophrenics noticeably improves when they take their drugs.
Removing the dangerous voices improves life.
Removing rare and benign voices… I am not sure about that one. Actually, I could imagine this being the other way round, for example sometimes hearing the voices could manifest as increased “willpower” (e.g. it’s easier to exercise every morning, if an irresistable voice of God keeps reminding you). Maybe akrasia correlates positively with atheism.
Meditation is not limited to the Hinduist or Buddhist religious context.
Then I’d cynically guess that people in those other contexts, if they meditate hard enough, usually receive hallucinations that confirm their contexts (e.g. instead of their previous reincarnation, they will see Jesus Christ or Holy Spirit or Allah coming and speaking to them).
This reminds me of debates about IQ, whether stone-age tribes would be diagnosed as mentally retarded.
Seems like on one hand, if we could use a time machine and somehow convince the stone-age people to do our IQ tests, they would probably score low. On the other hand, they wouldn’t be the same kind of people as a random selection of people who have the same value of IQ today. I guess the conclusion is that there are many factors that can lower the IQ, some one of them would be problematic in the ancient environment, and some of them not.
Analogically, the idea that the members of stone-age tribes would be diagnosed as mentally ill using today’s criteria seems quite unsurprising to me. And analogically, there could be various variants of schizophrenia, some of them widely present among the stone-age tribes, and some of them absent. I have no idea whether the anti-psychotic drugs would target those historic variants.
It seems like the goal of the most serious meditators is to have hallucinations of your previous reincarnations, which is supposed to give you the hard evidence that your faith is the true one. (Conveniently ignoring the alternative explanation that your faith may actually have shaped the content of the hallucinations.)
But most people in our culture seem to meditate merely as a way of relaxation. That means, not giving it enough time and effort to make the hallucinations appear. (Literature seems to suggests that it is usually necessary to spend weeks meditating several hours daily to achieve the “enlightenment”.)
Well, unless you believe in the supernatural, I am curious what other explanation there is...
(Connotational disclaimer: “Mentally ill” is not the same thing as “dysfunctional at everything”. Just because a person has weird hallucinations once in a while, they can still be a great person, even a great scientist.)
I’m talking about people living now. Amazon Indian tribes, Andamanese, maybe remote communities of Bushmen, Aboriginals, etc.
The question was much more specific: diagnosed with schizophrenia by DSM standards. And should we medicate them? The life of schizophrenics noticeably improves when they take their drugs.
I don’t know about that. Meditation is not limited to the Hinduist or Buddhist religious context. And, by the way, enlightenment is usually thought to require many years of meditation, not weeks.
They are normal :-P
I remember reading somewhere that Incas received commands from statues when the Spanish conquerred them. Not sure how reliable this information is, but I would count “hearing voices from statues” among the symptoms of schizophrenia, if that’s true.
The map (even a high-status one such as DSM) is not the territory. Asking “are they schizophrenic according to DSM” and “are they the kind of schizophrenic who is unable to function normally in their daily life” are two different questions. If someone hears voices which are completely benign, I’d say “live and let live”. It’s only the voices that make people cause harm to themselves and the others that should be treated by medication.
In the bicameral era, I can imagine that most people heard the relatively benign voices, and only a few ones heard the harmful voices. In other words, the actual problem of schizophrenia could be not hearing voices per se, but having those voices become dangerous. (Or hearing the voices so often that it makes normal functioning difficult; but how much that is would probably differ in the ancient times and now, especially when it’s a social stigma now.)
Removing the dangerous voices improves life.
Removing rare and benign voices… I am not sure about that one. Actually, I could imagine this being the other way round, for example sometimes hearing the voices could manifest as increased “willpower” (e.g. it’s easier to exercise every morning, if an irresistable voice of God keeps reminding you). Maybe akrasia correlates positively with atheism.
Then I’d cynically guess that people in those other contexts, if they meditate hard enough, usually receive hallucinations that confirm their contexts (e.g. instead of their previous reincarnation, they will see Jesus Christ or Holy Spirit or Allah coming and speaking to them).