Imagine a society that put non-trivial effort into helping the type of male HughRistik described in his comment here and in the previous discussion, and that actually updated its advice as it learned what worked and what didn’t. One where you can openly give effective advice about what a man should do to create interest from females without being ridiculed.
What about all the PUA stuff? I know nothing more of it than has been discussed here and from looking around their web sites, but it’s been spoken of with approval by some here and on OB. Not that I’m recommending it, I have my own ideas about it which aren’t relevant here, but there it is for the studying. Yes, there are people who say that it’s nasty and manipulative, yadda yadda. What do you care about that? The PUA people don’t. Take it or leave it.
Compare it to the present society. Do you see a difference? If so, you are in agreement.
If “society” doesn’t lay out a red carpet for you it’s deliberately doing you down? Sorry, but it isn’t anyone else’s responsibility to solve your problem. You solve it yourself, or not. Resources are out there, and pretending they aren’t and whining about how if it wasn’t for “society” you’d succeed at this is just an excuse to justify losing.
Despite the humor in the comic, that is a real danger: men do have “something to lose”, well above and beyond the feeling of rejection: he suddenly becomes a “pervert”, the woman tells others about what a loser he is, etc. I know because I have lived it.
And so you believe that any time a man asks a woman out and she declines, he gets labelled a pervert and badmouthed to all her friends. That is actually not how things work in the world outside your head. Offers amicably made and amicably declined happen all the time.
BTW, minor quibble (or major truth, depending on how far you pull on the loose thread): there is no such thing as a feeling of rejection. There is only the fact of being turned down (if it happens), and whatever attitude you decide to take about it.
What about all the PUA stuff? I know nothing more of it than has been discussed here and from looking around their web sites, but it’s been spoken of with approval by some here and on OB. …
Yes, people who could actually use the advice appreciate hearing it. I’m talking about disapproval from society in general. There is no widely-accepted, effective advice that you can openly talk about for how to attract women, like there is for women wanting to attract men. PUA is a recent development that is slowly allowing men to work around this problem, but its effectiveness will always be officially denied in polite company, no matter how much evidence accumulates.
If “society” doesn’t lay out a red carpet for you it’s deliberately doing you down? Sorry, but it isn’t anyone else’s responsiblity to solve your problem. You solve it yourself, or not. Resources are out there, and pretending they aren’t and whining about how if it wasn’t for “society …
Yikes! Putting words into my mouth there? Let’s see, I didn’t claim there are no resources, I didn’t aim to justify any of my personal failings, I didn’t claim that society has to throw out a red carpet for every idea. However, there is a very real problem for men in general, and it’s ridiculous to equate any discussion of that with excuse-making.
For what it’s worth, I am most certainly not retiring to my cave on this issue, and in no sense have I given up. I have, in fact, availed myself of the resources you mentioned. Though I won’t publicly go into much detail, it proved my suspicions right—the course assumed a prerequisite level of implicit social knowledge that I didn’t have. Fortunately, I got a refund and have been developing in that area. As the thread Hugh linked shows, my efforts have led to a date, so I most certainly not taking the attitude you have so rudely ascribed to me.
And so you believe that any time a man asks a woman out and she declines, he gets labelled a pervert and badmouthed to all her friends. That is actually not how things work in the world outside your head. Offers amicably made and amicably declined happen all the time.
Again, putting words into my mouth. I never claimed that this happens every time, I don’t believe it happens every time, and it wasn’t necessary for my point that it happens every time. All that’s necessary is that the risk be too high. If you’ve never had that problem, good for you—you’re a natural, or learned the appropriate protocols from the appropriate people. That’s still no reason to deny the existence of the problem for others.
BTW, minor quibble (or major truth, depending on how far you pull on the loose thread): there is no such thing as a feeling of rejection. There is only the fact of being turned down (if it happens), and whatever attitude you decide to take about it.
Nope, there’s also the change in other people’s behaviors and beliefs about me that result from a failed attempt, which I cannot alter merely by changing my view of how I was turned down; ignoring this fact on the basis of some rugged “I choose my attitude” is simplistic, and ignorant of the relevant factors.
Whoops, misread that and focused on a point that wasn’t there. Thought RK’s comment expressed a sentiment that it did not actually express, or at least expressed only very mildly.
Original comment:
African nations could all develop well-functioning, corruption-free constitutional democracies, if only people took responsibility for their actions.
You see how this attitude is, perhaps, less than constructive? I’m willing to bet that what works for you isn’t working for a lot of other people; a solution existing doesn’t help people who can’t employ that solution. Until employing that solution is a task, and not a problem, there’s progress to be made.
African nations could all develop well-functioning, corruption-free constitutional democracies, if only people took responsibility for their actions.
I don’t accept this analogy. It would take a large number of people acting together to change the African situation. One person acting on their own can do little. But SilasBarta’s desire for an active social life only requires action by him. The problem, as he describes it, is that he does not know what to do, that what he has done so far has failed, sometimes catastrophically. But nobody is stealing women from him. Nobody is preventing him doing whatever it is that will work, should he ever discover what that is (although depending on the scale of past catastrophes, he might have to emigrate to another continent to start over). Nobody is to blame.
I’m willing to bet that what works for you
I have been single for all of my 54 years. Make of that what you will.
What about all the PUA stuff? I know nothing more of it than has been discussed here and from looking around their web sites, but it’s been spoken of with approval by some here and on OB. Not that I’m recommending it, I have my own ideas about it which aren’t relevant here, but there it is for the studying. Yes, there are people who say that it’s nasty and manipulative, yadda yadda. What do you care about that? The PUA people don’t. Take it or leave it.
If “society” doesn’t lay out a red carpet for you it’s deliberately doing you down? Sorry, but it isn’t anyone else’s responsibility to solve your problem. You solve it yourself, or not. Resources are out there, and pretending they aren’t and whining about how if it wasn’t for “society” you’d succeed at this is just an excuse to justify losing.
And so you believe that any time a man asks a woman out and she declines, he gets labelled a pervert and badmouthed to all her friends. That is actually not how things work in the world outside your head. Offers amicably made and amicably declined happen all the time.
BTW, minor quibble (or major truth, depending on how far you pull on the loose thread): there is no such thing as a feeling of rejection. There is only the fact of being turned down (if it happens), and whatever attitude you decide to take about it.
Yes, people who could actually use the advice appreciate hearing it. I’m talking about disapproval from society in general. There is no widely-accepted, effective advice that you can openly talk about for how to attract women, like there is for women wanting to attract men. PUA is a recent development that is slowly allowing men to work around this problem, but its effectiveness will always be officially denied in polite company, no matter how much evidence accumulates.
Yikes! Putting words into my mouth there? Let’s see, I didn’t claim there are no resources, I didn’t aim to justify any of my personal failings, I didn’t claim that society has to throw out a red carpet for every idea. However, there is a very real problem for men in general, and it’s ridiculous to equate any discussion of that with excuse-making.
For what it’s worth, I am most certainly not retiring to my cave on this issue, and in no sense have I given up. I have, in fact, availed myself of the resources you mentioned. Though I won’t publicly go into much detail, it proved my suspicions right—the course assumed a prerequisite level of implicit social knowledge that I didn’t have. Fortunately, I got a refund and have been developing in that area. As the thread Hugh linked shows, my efforts have led to a date, so I most certainly not taking the attitude you have so rudely ascribed to me.
Again, putting words into my mouth. I never claimed that this happens every time, I don’t believe it happens every time, and it wasn’t necessary for my point that it happens every time. All that’s necessary is that the risk be too high. If you’ve never had that problem, good for you—you’re a natural, or learned the appropriate protocols from the appropriate people. That’s still no reason to deny the existence of the problem for others.
Nope, there’s also the change in other people’s behaviors and beliefs about me that result from a failed attempt, which I cannot alter merely by changing my view of how I was turned down; ignoring this fact on the basis of some rugged “I choose my attitude” is simplistic, and ignorant of the relevant factors.
This, from OB seems particularly relevant.
Whoops, misread that and focused on a point that wasn’t there. Thought RK’s comment expressed a sentiment that it did not actually express, or at least expressed only very mildly.
Original comment:
African nations could all develop well-functioning, corruption-free constitutional democracies, if only people took responsibility for their actions.
You see how this attitude is, perhaps, less than constructive? I’m willing to bet that what works for you isn’t working for a lot of other people; a solution existing doesn’t help people who can’t employ that solution. Until employing that solution is a task, and not a problem, there’s progress to be made.
I don’t accept this analogy. It would take a large number of people acting together to change the African situation. One person acting on their own can do little. But SilasBarta’s desire for an active social life only requires action by him. The problem, as he describes it, is that he does not know what to do, that what he has done so far has failed, sometimes catastrophically. But nobody is stealing women from him. Nobody is preventing him doing whatever it is that will work, should he ever discover what that is (although depending on the scale of past catastrophes, he might have to emigrate to another continent to start over). Nobody is to blame.
I have been single for all of my 54 years. Make of that what you will.