This post assumes that the reader wants a long-term relationship. There is often talk here on Less Wrong about PUA techniques, but they seem to be oriented towards the short-term. So, as usual, the question to ask yourself is: what do you really want? If your preference is for the short-term then you should get to know someone who knows PUA techniques, or attend a bootcamp. If your preference is for the long-term there are plenty of dating sites that claim to be able to match you with people of your type.
This post assumes that the reader wants a long-term relationship. There is often talk here on Less Wrong about PUA techniques, but they seem to be oriented towards the short-term.
There are indeed particular pickup techniques and approaches that, while they are effective in the short term, they will not set up a solid foundation for the long term. For instance, I know that Cocky&Funny can generate a lot of sexual tension, yet it may not lead to the most fertile emotional connection if it is relied on too heavily, or if it used between the wrong couple.
Furthermore, there are some mindsets in the community that may not be most conducive to relationship success. Cynicism towards women is an obvious one. And though viewing human interaction as an “experiment” is a great tool that facilitates learning and protects from feelings of rejection, and there is a sense in which every relationship is an experiment, relationships require a level of emotional investment that goes beyond clinical detachment.
Another barrier to relationships experienced by some PUAs is the social robot problem master PUA Neil Strauss discusses in The Game. In fact, he has also written that in his experience, a lot of the behaviors necessary for a man to get in a relationship, and to keep it, are opposite.
Yet even though there are many particular techniques and attitudes that are detrimental to long-term relationships, it would be false to assume that PUA teachings in general suffer from that flaw when we understand in detail what PUAs actually teach (which only a few people here do). The seduction community studies male-female interaction on a fundamental level and teaches principles and techniques that apply to interactions of any duration. Most of the stuff is the kind of “nuts-and-bolts” advice that SilasBarta points out, that is missing in general society.
Here are a few examples:
Approaching women
Attracting women, and sparking and maintaining sexual chemistry with them
Establishing and maintaining status in a woman’s eyes
Making sexual advances
Not being overly desperate or needy
Conversational skills
Developing rapport between people
Understanding someone else’s values and showing yours
Communicating over phone, text message, email, etc...
Dealing with conflict
Understanding female psychology and sexuality, and being able to more accurate model female responses
Emotional self-regulation
As you can see, most of these areas of study are useful for both short-term and long-term relationships. PUA techniques are probably relatively more useful for the early stages of relationships than they are for the later stages, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t still very relevant for long-term relationships (e.g. maintaining sexual chemistry).
When you think about it, every relationship went through the early stages before it reached the later stages.
Pickup artists do also study specific relationship skills, and PUA forums typically have relationships subforums, though this body of knowledge isn’t so far a long as other PUA knowledge (we should expect them to have exponentially more experience with the earlier stages of male-female interaction than with later stages).
So, as usual, the question to ask yourself is: what do you really want? If your preference is for the short-term then you should get to know someone who knows PUA techniques, or attend a bootcamp.
Yes, but it’s not true that you shouldn’t if you are looking for long-term relationships. You just need to filter out the stuff in the community that is detrimental to relationships.
The question I would ask is: what is your biggest challenge? If a guy is finding items on the above list challenging, then the seduction community can help. If he is having trouble meeting any eligible women, then improving his attractiveness and dating skills will help him find someone. And as he improves, he will have a higher chance of meeting women he is well matched with (though he will be less likely to jump in a relationship with the first woman who gives him the time of day).
If he doesn’t find my laundry list challenging, and he is already attractive to women and has choices then good for him! He doesn’t need the seduction community and he should study materials more specifically focused on maintaining relationships, if that is his real challenge.
If your preference is for the long-term there are plenty of dating sites that claim to be able to match you with people of your type.
The evidence of the effectiveness of online dating is less than stunning. Online dating is probably more effective when you have pickup skills to back it up. Men who don’t already have some level of attractiveness and skill with women may find it a frustrating experience, because they won’t really make a strong impression on the women on the site who are swamped with male attention. Even though online dating eliminates some of the barriers for these men (e.g. the need to confidently approach), without a fundamental understanding of what women look for and how male-female interaction works, there are so many pitfalls that can drop them into women’s “boring” or “creepy” bins.
My solution is to study pickup, and mess around with an online dating profile when I’m bored… I set up a profile which shows my lifestyle in real life, and women sometimes contact me.
This post assumes that the reader wants a long-term relationship. There is often talk here on Less Wrong about PUA techniques, but they seem to be oriented towards the short-term. So, as usual, the question to ask yourself is: what do you really want? If your preference is for the short-term then you should get to know someone who knows PUA techniques, or attend a bootcamp. If your preference is for the long-term there are plenty of dating sites that claim to be able to match you with people of your type.
There are indeed particular pickup techniques and approaches that, while they are effective in the short term, they will not set up a solid foundation for the long term. For instance, I know that Cocky&Funny can generate a lot of sexual tension, yet it may not lead to the most fertile emotional connection if it is relied on too heavily, or if it used between the wrong couple.
Furthermore, there are some mindsets in the community that may not be most conducive to relationship success. Cynicism towards women is an obvious one. And though viewing human interaction as an “experiment” is a great tool that facilitates learning and protects from feelings of rejection, and there is a sense in which every relationship is an experiment, relationships require a level of emotional investment that goes beyond clinical detachment.
Another barrier to relationships experienced by some PUAs is the social robot problem master PUA Neil Strauss discusses in The Game. In fact, he has also written that in his experience, a lot of the behaviors necessary for a man to get in a relationship, and to keep it, are opposite.
Yet even though there are many particular techniques and attitudes that are detrimental to long-term relationships, it would be false to assume that PUA teachings in general suffer from that flaw when we understand in detail what PUAs actually teach (which only a few people here do). The seduction community studies male-female interaction on a fundamental level and teaches principles and techniques that apply to interactions of any duration. Most of the stuff is the kind of “nuts-and-bolts” advice that SilasBarta points out, that is missing in general society.
Here are a few examples:
Approaching women
Attracting women, and sparking and maintaining sexual chemistry with them
Establishing and maintaining status in a woman’s eyes
Making sexual advances
Not being overly desperate or needy
Conversational skills
Developing rapport between people
Understanding someone else’s values and showing yours
Communicating over phone, text message, email, etc...
Dealing with conflict
Understanding female psychology and sexuality, and being able to more accurate model female responses
Emotional self-regulation
As you can see, most of these areas of study are useful for both short-term and long-term relationships. PUA techniques are probably relatively more useful for the early stages of relationships than they are for the later stages, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t still very relevant for long-term relationships (e.g. maintaining sexual chemistry).
When you think about it, every relationship went through the early stages before it reached the later stages.
Pickup artists do also study specific relationship skills, and PUA forums typically have relationships subforums, though this body of knowledge isn’t so far a long as other PUA knowledge (we should expect them to have exponentially more experience with the earlier stages of male-female interaction than with later stages).
Yes, but it’s not true that you shouldn’t if you are looking for long-term relationships. You just need to filter out the stuff in the community that is detrimental to relationships.
The question I would ask is: what is your biggest challenge? If a guy is finding items on the above list challenging, then the seduction community can help. If he is having trouble meeting any eligible women, then improving his attractiveness and dating skills will help him find someone. And as he improves, he will have a higher chance of meeting women he is well matched with (though he will be less likely to jump in a relationship with the first woman who gives him the time of day).
If he doesn’t find my laundry list challenging, and he is already attractive to women and has choices then good for him! He doesn’t need the seduction community and he should study materials more specifically focused on maintaining relationships, if that is his real challenge.
The evidence of the effectiveness of online dating is less than stunning. Online dating is probably more effective when you have pickup skills to back it up. Men who don’t already have some level of attractiveness and skill with women may find it a frustrating experience, because they won’t really make a strong impression on the women on the site who are swamped with male attention. Even though online dating eliminates some of the barriers for these men (e.g. the need to confidently approach), without a fundamental understanding of what women look for and how male-female interaction works, there are so many pitfalls that can drop them into women’s “boring” or “creepy” bins.
My solution is to study pickup, and mess around with an online dating profile when I’m bored… I set up a profile which shows my lifestyle in real life, and women sometimes contact me.
I found that useful. Thanks.
Post edited to make the assumption explicit.