Thanks for the thoughtful response. Great summary. I think this is missing something:
We don’t seem to have good social interfaces for large groups, perhaps because we cannot simulate large groups.
Not exactly what I was going for. Many actors + game theoretic concerns → complex simulation. Eventually good simulation becomes intractable. However, when a common set of rules is enforced strongly enough, each individual’s utility function aligns with that set of rules. This simplifies the situation and creates a higher level interface. This is why I thought to include enforcement as an important dimension.
In response to this:
Regarding mental prediction of group behavior as the definition of trust. I am not sure on this one. What about when you reliably predict someone will lie?
If you can reliably predict that someone’s statements are untruths, then you can trust them to do the opposite of what they said. Sarcasm is trustworthy untruth. I think that the lack of trust arises only when I’m highly uncertain about which statements are truths vs. lies.
That said, I do think that this definition of trust is imperfect. You might “trust” your doctor to prescribe the right medicine, even if you don’t know what decision they will make. I guess I could argue that my prediction is about the doctor acting in my best interest, rather than the particular action… I think the definition is imprecise, but still useful.
I appreciate the book recommendation and the intro to your thinking on this topic. I’ll have to update when I have a chance to do the suggested reading :)
Thank you for additional detail, I understand your point about conformity to rules, the way that increases predictability, and how that allows for larger groups to coordinate effectively. I think I am getting hung up on the word trust, as I tend to think of it as when I take for granted someone has good intentions towards me and basic shared values. (e.g. they can’t think whats best for me is to kill me) I think I am pretty much on board with everything else about the article.
I wonder if another productive way to think about all this would be (continuing to riff on interfaces, and largely restating what you have already said) something like: when people form relationships they understand how each other will behave, relationships enable coordination, humans can handle understanding and coordinating up to Dunbar’s number, to work around this limit above 150 we begin grouping people- essentially abstracting them back down to a single person (named for example ‘Sales’ or ‘The IT Department’), if that group of people follow rules/process then the group becomes understandable and we can have a relationship and coordinate with that group, and if we all follow shared rules, everyone can understand and coordinate with everyone else without having to know them. I think I am pretty much agreeing with the point you make about small groups being able to predict each other’s behavior, and that being key. Instead of saying one person trusts another person, I’d favor one person understands another person. I think this language is compatible with your examples of sarcasm, lies, and the prisoner’s dilemma.
Anyway, I’ll leave it at that. Thank you for the discussion.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. Great summary. I think this is missing something:
Not exactly what I was going for. Many actors + game theoretic concerns → complex simulation. Eventually good simulation becomes intractable. However, when a common set of rules is enforced strongly enough, each individual’s utility function aligns with that set of rules. This simplifies the situation and creates a higher level interface. This is why I thought to include enforcement as an important dimension.
In response to this:
If you can reliably predict that someone’s statements are untruths, then you can trust them to do the opposite of what they said. Sarcasm is trustworthy untruth. I think that the lack of trust arises only when I’m highly uncertain about which statements are truths vs. lies.
That said, I do think that this definition of trust is imperfect. You might “trust” your doctor to prescribe the right medicine, even if you don’t know what decision they will make. I guess I could argue that my prediction is about the doctor acting in my best interest, rather than the particular action… I think the definition is imprecise, but still useful.
I appreciate the book recommendation and the intro to your thinking on this topic. I’ll have to update when I have a chance to do the suggested reading :)
Thank you for additional detail, I understand your point about conformity to rules, the way that increases predictability, and how that allows for larger groups to coordinate effectively. I think I am getting hung up on the word trust, as I tend to think of it as when I take for granted someone has good intentions towards me and basic shared values. (e.g. they can’t think whats best for me is to kill me) I think I am pretty much on board with everything else about the article.
I wonder if another productive way to think about all this would be (continuing to riff on interfaces, and largely restating what you have already said) something like: when people form relationships they understand how each other will behave, relationships enable coordination, humans can handle understanding and coordinating up to Dunbar’s number, to work around this limit above 150 we begin grouping people- essentially abstracting them back down to a single person (named for example ‘Sales’ or ‘The IT Department’), if that group of people follow rules/process then the group becomes understandable and we can have a relationship and coordinate with that group, and if we all follow shared rules, everyone can understand and coordinate with everyone else without having to know them. I think I am pretty much agreeing with the point you make about small groups being able to predict each other’s behavior, and that being key. Instead of saying one person trusts another person, I’d favor one person understands another person. I think this language is compatible with your examples of sarcasm, lies, and the prisoner’s dilemma.
Anyway, I’ll leave it at that. Thank you for the discussion.