As I said in another comment, I didn’t give enough context. The conversations were substantive, and there were little hints that I was picking up on that gave me a holistic sense that they were telling the truth on this point. I may have been reading the wrong connotations into what they were saying, but it wasn’t simply a matter of literally taking what they said at face value.
Pure conjecture here, but, is it possible that the admissions counselors are so saturated with the “right” activities, that their worldview is situated within that context so deeply that when you ask the question, “Which activities are acceptable?” and they reply, “Any of them!” they are simply polling their local mental space of activities which only includes acceptable activities?
It’s kind of like asking, “What kind of music do you like?” And hearing the answer, “Oh, all kinds.” Really? You like experimental funk and digeridoo and tuvan throat singing and thrash metal and Bach? Oh, you meant “some pop and hip hop and some classic rock.”
Again, I have no idea at all how granular your conversations got and how specific these counselors were, so maybe I’m totally off base.
“Which activities are acceptable?” and they reply, “Any of them!” they are simply polling their local mental space of activities which only includes acceptable activities?
Well let’s do a thought experiment. Suppose a college applicant is president of the Dungeons and Dragons club. He is so passionate about it that he sometimes dresses up as his character—a 5th level Elf fighter. He writes his application essay about how he likes to fantasize that he really is an Elven fighter with his trusty sword. Another applicant is similarly passionate about firearms. He’s the president of the hunting club and the shooting club and he’s interned for the NRA.
First of all, I think it’s fair to conclude just based on common sense that both of these guys will be at a big disadvantage compared to the captain of the lacrosse team or the editor of the school newspaper. Even though they have shown a lot of passion and commitment.
The next question is what is going through the admissions officer’s mind when he says that all activities are acceptable even though that’s pretty clearly not true. I would agree with you that the example of the gun nut or the D & D fanatic probably aren’t leaping into his mind. Why not? Well I think your hypothesis is part of it. But also, I think that there is a human tendency when asked about the working of one’s mind to subconsciously look for ways to give more socially acceptable answers. Saying “I enjoy all different kinds of music” is a pretty safe response to a question about musical taste so your subconscious probably is not going to strain very hard to think of examples of music you hate.
Suppose a college applicant is president of the Dungeons and Dragons club… Another applicant is similarly passionate about firearms… First of all, I think it’s fair to conclude just based on common sense that both of these guys will be at a big disadvantage compared to the captain of the lacrosse team or the editor of the school newspaper.
I disagree with you there. Unique activities are almost certainly advantaged over common ones. If there are 100 editors of the school newspaper, 1 rifleman, and 1 kid who founded a group for mentoring inner city kids, they may like the last kid more than the rifleman. But chances are both of them getting in anyway, along with only 10 of the school editors. The rifleman is much better off doing that than doing an activity already saturated with top-flight kids. Now it is true that the same probably doesn’t apply to the passionate D&D-er because the activity is coded as too low-status to count or something. But while unique-liberal > unique-conservative, unique-conservative definitely > generic-liberal in terms of admissions.
Unique activities are almost certainly advantaged over common ones.
Well that’s a different issue. All things being equal, passion for dungeons and dragons or firearms will put you at a disadvantage compared to passion for activities which aren’t so stigmatized.
It’s kind of like asking, “What kind of music do you like?” And hearing the answer, “Oh, all kinds.” Really? You like experimental funk and digeridoo and tuvan throat singing and thrash metal and Bach? Oh, you meant “some pop and hip hop and some classic rock.”
What an excellent example for demonstrating your point.
In that other comment you said “If there are preferences, they’re nonobvious, and it’s not clear how you would go about discovering them.”
Well, there is a large and well-developed industry of getting high school seniors into colleges. There are a lot of people who gave a lot of thought to the issue of how to present the best image of an applicant to the admissions office. These people write books, give seminars, offer consulting, etc.
The issue of “correct” extracurriculars is extensively discussed. Some of the people discussing them used to be admissions officers and now work in the college-advice industry. As far as I know the general consensus is that extracurriculars matter. Not enough to compensate for bad grades or low SAT, but if you’re applying to a college that’s in the right range for your grades/SAT, the extracurriculars matter a lot.
You seem to be ignoring what is, basically, existing literature, and putting out your own recommendations on the basis of several conversations that you—as a member of the public—had with several admission offices. Are you quite sure that you understand the issue in sufficient depth to give advice to other people and maybe even charge for it?
Well, there is a large and well-developed industry of getting high school seniors into colleges. There are a lot of people who gave a lot of thought to the issue of how to present the best image of an applicant to the admissions office. These people write books, give seminars, offer consulting, etc.
I don’t think that what I wrote is out of sync with what these people say about extracurricular activities. For example, the founder of AdMISSION POSSIBLE writes
“When it comes to extracurricular involvements, it doesn’t really matter what the content is. Anything from doing a major DNA research project to volunteering at a school that serves low income students to excelling at fly-fishing is legitimate fodder for college application grids. No matter the activity, colleges look for quality of involvement rather than quantity of activities.”
As far as I know the general consensus is that extracurriculars matter. Not enough to compensate for bad grades or low SAT, but if you’re applying to a college that’s in the right range for your grades/SAT, the extracurriculars matter a lot
This is my understanding as well.
You seem to be ignoring what is, basically, existing literature,
How? What does the existing literature say that contradicts what I wrote in the post?
Are you quite sure that you understand the issue in sufficient depth to give advice to other people and maybe even charge for it?
It’s possible that we should investigate in more depth, doing a more thorough review of what others have written, but we’ve already done some of this.
As I said in another comment, I didn’t give enough context. The conversations were substantive, and there were little hints that I was picking up on that gave me a holistic sense that they were telling the truth on this point. I may have been reading the wrong connotations into what they were saying, but it wasn’t simply a matter of literally taking what they said at face value.
Pure conjecture here, but, is it possible that the admissions counselors are so saturated with the “right” activities, that their worldview is situated within that context so deeply that when you ask the question, “Which activities are acceptable?” and they reply, “Any of them!” they are simply polling their local mental space of activities which only includes acceptable activities?
It’s kind of like asking, “What kind of music do you like?” And hearing the answer, “Oh, all kinds.” Really? You like experimental funk and digeridoo and tuvan throat singing and thrash metal and Bach? Oh, you meant “some pop and hip hop and some classic rock.”
Again, I have no idea at all how granular your conversations got and how specific these counselors were, so maybe I’m totally off base.
Well let’s do a thought experiment. Suppose a college applicant is president of the Dungeons and Dragons club. He is so passionate about it that he sometimes dresses up as his character—a 5th level Elf fighter. He writes his application essay about how he likes to fantasize that he really is an Elven fighter with his trusty sword. Another applicant is similarly passionate about firearms. He’s the president of the hunting club and the shooting club and he’s interned for the NRA.
First of all, I think it’s fair to conclude just based on common sense that both of these guys will be at a big disadvantage compared to the captain of the lacrosse team or the editor of the school newspaper. Even though they have shown a lot of passion and commitment.
The next question is what is going through the admissions officer’s mind when he says that all activities are acceptable even though that’s pretty clearly not true. I would agree with you that the example of the gun nut or the D & D fanatic probably aren’t leaping into his mind. Why not? Well I think your hypothesis is part of it. But also, I think that there is a human tendency when asked about the working of one’s mind to subconsciously look for ways to give more socially acceptable answers. Saying “I enjoy all different kinds of music” is a pretty safe response to a question about musical taste so your subconscious probably is not going to strain very hard to think of examples of music you hate.
I disagree with you there. Unique activities are almost certainly advantaged over common ones. If there are 100 editors of the school newspaper, 1 rifleman, and 1 kid who founded a group for mentoring inner city kids, they may like the last kid more than the rifleman. But chances are both of them getting in anyway, along with only 10 of the school editors. The rifleman is much better off doing that than doing an activity already saturated with top-flight kids. Now it is true that the same probably doesn’t apply to the passionate D&D-er because the activity is coded as too low-status to count or something. But while unique-liberal > unique-conservative, unique-conservative definitely > generic-liberal in terms of admissions.
Well that’s a different issue. All things being equal, passion for dungeons and dragons or firearms will put you at a disadvantage compared to passion for activities which aren’t so stigmatized.
What an excellent example for demonstrating your point.
In that other comment you said “If there are preferences, they’re nonobvious, and it’s not clear how you would go about discovering them.”
Well, there is a large and well-developed industry of getting high school seniors into colleges. There are a lot of people who gave a lot of thought to the issue of how to present the best image of an applicant to the admissions office. These people write books, give seminars, offer consulting, etc.
The issue of “correct” extracurriculars is extensively discussed. Some of the people discussing them used to be admissions officers and now work in the college-advice industry. As far as I know the general consensus is that extracurriculars matter. Not enough to compensate for bad grades or low SAT, but if you’re applying to a college that’s in the right range for your grades/SAT, the extracurriculars matter a lot.
You seem to be ignoring what is, basically, existing literature, and putting out your own recommendations on the basis of several conversations that you—as a member of the public—had with several admission offices. Are you quite sure that you understand the issue in sufficient depth to give advice to other people and maybe even charge for it?
I don’t think that what I wrote is out of sync with what these people say about extracurricular activities. For example, the founder of AdMISSION POSSIBLE writes
“When it comes to extracurricular involvements, it doesn’t really matter what the content is. Anything from doing a major DNA research project to volunteering at a school that serves low income students to excelling at fly-fishing is legitimate fodder for college application grids. No matter the activity, colleges look for quality of involvement rather than quantity of activities.”
This is my understanding as well.
How? What does the existing literature say that contradicts what I wrote in the post?
It’s possible that we should investigate in more depth, doing a more thorough review of what others have written, but we’ve already done some of this.
(I’ll add that posting to LW is one way in which we’re vetting our research and advice.)