So, one of the most-read women’s magazines isn’t suggestive of how women think, a major high-grossing film that describes Cosmo as “the Bible” and expects viewers to get the joke isn’t suggestive of how women think
I agree that Cosmopolitan knows a lot about how many women think, but this isn’t the same thing as Cosmo being representative of women-in-full-generality. The qualifier really does seem important here. Compare: Sports Illustrated or Esquire know a lot about how many men think, but (I submit) we wouldn’t want to say that these publications represent men-in-general. I mean, I would bet that most of the men here given their choice would rather read, oh, let’s say, IEEE Spectrum.
Oh, and to the downmod squad: check out this comment before you view me as just another bad guy on the other team worthy of lower karma.
Considering that the linked comment presently has 9 points, I wouldn’t rule out the hypothesis that your comments are largely being voted on by their perceived individual merit, rather than an aspersion cast upon everything you write as the words of a “bad guy.”
I agree that Cosmopolitan knows a lot about how many women think, but this isn’t the same thing as Cosmo being representative of women-in-full-generality.
It isn’t necessary for the latter claim to be true to make my point. (See below)
The qualifier really does seem important here. Compare: Sports Illustrated or Esquire know a lot about how many men think, but (I submit) we wouldn’t want to say that these publications represent men-in-general. I mean, I would bet that most of the men here given their choice would rather read, oh, let’s say, IEEE Spectrum.
Let’s go over this again:
1) Alicorn claimed that viewing women as something to “get” once you achieve a certain status, is objectifying and thus obviously beyond the pale. Not some idiosyncratic preference on her part, but something we really need to discourage, wherever it occurs.
2) Cosmo was brought up to show that, no, clearly women generally don’t find it beyond the pale to think of other humans in exactly these terms. Even if Alicorn is bothered, it is therefore not the case that women agree with her, and this language is therefore not something we should worry about in terms of scaring away women.
3) Alicorn and thomblake go to herculean efforts to downplay the relevance of such an obscure, poorly-regarded publication as Cosmo.
Now, your turn:
4) You say there’s a difference between the kind of woman who reads Cosmo and the kind who reads (???), just as there’s a difference between the kind of guy who reads Esquire vs. the guy who reads IEEE Spectrum.
Now for the hard part! For this comparison to make any point in your favor, you need to show how there’s a kind of language used in Sports Illustrated, etc., that most men here consider beyond the pale in its offensiveness, no matter who uses it.
Can you do it? No? Then you don’t have a point.
Considering that the linked comment presently has 9 points, I wouldn’t rule out the hypothesis that your comments are largely being voted on by their perceived individual merit, rather than an aspersion cast upon everything you write as the words of a “bad guy.”
Look again: the downmods are concentrated in this thread. Why do all my good posts just happen to fall in the other thread and accumulate upmods gradually, while the bad ones fall in this thread—and get modded minutes after they’re made.
Oh, and go on up/down rollercoasters, apparently being defended by some people trying to restore sanity. While again, the other thread has no such rollercoaster effect.
I avoid modding commenters in exchanges I’m directly involved in. I guess not everyone has that kind of restraint? (Alicorn, this is where you learn the dangers of unilateral disarmament.)
Now for the hard part! For this comparison to make any point in your favor, you need to show how there’s a kind of language used in Sports Illustrated, etc., that most men here consider beyond the pale in its offensiveness, no matter who uses it. Can you do it? No? Then you don’t have a point.
While it’s true that I probably can’t find an example of something most men here would find “beyond-the-pale offensive,” I don’t agree that that’s the correct standard to apply here. If I’m reading you correctly, you’re saying that Cosmo is evidence that Alicorn’s reactions are not gender-typical, and that therefore the fact that Alicorn was offended by some behavior, doesn’t tell us that that behavior discourages potential female users. But the fact that P(Cosmo-reader|female)!=P(female|Cosmo-reader) does seem relevant here, because honestly, Less Wrong’s potential female user base is probably not primarily composed of the type of women who read Cosmo; probably, it’s primarily composed of women like Alicorn. We really are drawing from the tails here. I made an analogy: I said that mainstream women’s magazines aren’t representative of the women here, just as men’s magazines aren’t representative of the men here, and you seem to be pointing out that the analogy isn’t perfectly symmetrical, saying that there’s nothing in the mainstream men’s magazines that would offend a majority of the men here to such a degree as Alicorn was offended by what she perceived as objectification, which you are saying is condoned by mainstream women’s magazines. Well, I agree that the situation isn’t perfectly symmetrical: gender issues are never perfectly symmetrical. But the analogy still seemed worth making. For what it’s worth, I’m male, and I’m frequently offended or annoyed by mainstream men’s culture claiming to represent the interests of men-in-general, when they certainly don’t represent me.
Even if Alicorn is bothered, it is therefore not the case that women agree with her, and this language is therefore not something we should worry about in terms of scaring away women.
Quite a number of people already here agreed that the language was bothersome. How many people need to agree before it’s a problem? It seems that we’ve already had a long enough discussion about it to establish that it’s a volatile issue here already.
I agree that Cosmopolitan knows a lot about how many women think, but this isn’t the same thing as Cosmo being representative of women-in-full-generality. The qualifier really does seem important here. Compare: Sports Illustrated or Esquire know a lot about how many men think, but (I submit) we wouldn’t want to say that these publications represent men-in-general. I mean, I would bet that most of the men here given their choice would rather read, oh, let’s say, IEEE Spectrum.
Considering that the linked comment presently has 9 points, I wouldn’t rule out the hypothesis that your comments are largely being voted on by their perceived individual merit, rather than an aspersion cast upon everything you write as the words of a “bad guy.”
It isn’t necessary for the latter claim to be true to make my point. (See below)
Let’s go over this again:
1) Alicorn claimed that viewing women as something to “get” once you achieve a certain status, is objectifying and thus obviously beyond the pale. Not some idiosyncratic preference on her part, but something we really need to discourage, wherever it occurs.
2) Cosmo was brought up to show that, no, clearly women generally don’t find it beyond the pale to think of other humans in exactly these terms. Even if Alicorn is bothered, it is therefore not the case that women agree with her, and this language is therefore not something we should worry about in terms of scaring away women.
3) Alicorn and thomblake go to herculean efforts to downplay the relevance of such an obscure, poorly-regarded publication as Cosmo.
Now, your turn:
4) You say there’s a difference between the kind of woman who reads Cosmo and the kind who reads (???), just as there’s a difference between the kind of guy who reads Esquire vs. the guy who reads IEEE Spectrum.
Now for the hard part! For this comparison to make any point in your favor, you need to show how there’s a kind of language used in Sports Illustrated, etc., that most men here consider beyond the pale in its offensiveness, no matter who uses it.
Can you do it? No? Then you don’t have a point.
Look again: the downmods are concentrated in this thread. Why do all my good posts just happen to fall in the other thread and accumulate upmods gradually, while the bad ones fall in this thread—and get modded minutes after they’re made.
Oh, and go on up/down rollercoasters, apparently being defended by some people trying to restore sanity. While again, the other thread has no such rollercoaster effect.
I avoid modding commenters in exchanges I’m directly involved in. I guess not everyone has that kind of restraint? (Alicorn, this is where you learn the dangers of unilateral disarmament.)
While it’s true that I probably can’t find an example of something most men here would find “beyond-the-pale offensive,” I don’t agree that that’s the correct standard to apply here. If I’m reading you correctly, you’re saying that Cosmo is evidence that Alicorn’s reactions are not gender-typical, and that therefore the fact that Alicorn was offended by some behavior, doesn’t tell us that that behavior discourages potential female users. But the fact that P(Cosmo-reader|female)!=P(female|Cosmo-reader) does seem relevant here, because honestly, Less Wrong’s potential female user base is probably not primarily composed of the type of women who read Cosmo; probably, it’s primarily composed of women like Alicorn. We really are drawing from the tails here. I made an analogy: I said that mainstream women’s magazines aren’t representative of the women here, just as men’s magazines aren’t representative of the men here, and you seem to be pointing out that the analogy isn’t perfectly symmetrical, saying that there’s nothing in the mainstream men’s magazines that would offend a majority of the men here to such a degree as Alicorn was offended by what she perceived as objectification, which you are saying is condoned by mainstream women’s magazines. Well, I agree that the situation isn’t perfectly symmetrical: gender issues are never perfectly symmetrical. But the analogy still seemed worth making. For what it’s worth, I’m male, and I’m frequently offended or annoyed by mainstream men’s culture claiming to represent the interests of men-in-general, when they certainly don’t represent me.
Quite a number of people already here agreed that the language was bothersome. How many people need to agree before it’s a problem? It seems that we’ve already had a long enough discussion about it to establish that it’s a volatile issue here already.