“It sounds like you’re saying that you personally value sentient beings fulfilling their fundamental desires.” Yes.
“Do you also value a sentient being fulfilling its fundamental desire to eliminate sentient beings that value sentient beings that fulfill their fundamental desires?”
No sentient being has, or can have (at least in a normal way) that desire as a “fundamental desire.” It should be obvious why such a value cannot evolve, if you consider the matter physically. Considered from my point of view, it cannot evolve precisely because it is an evil desire.
Also, it is important here that we are speaking of “fundamental” desires, in that a particular sentient being sometimes has a particular desire for something bad, due to some kind of mistake or bad situation. (E.g. a murderer has the desire to kill someone, but that desire is not fundamental.)
“You have some members of a species who want to eat their innocent, thinking children, and you have some innocent, thinking children who don’t want to be eaten. On what grounds do you side with the eaters?”
As I said in another comment, the babyeater situation is contrived, and most likely it is impossible for those values to evolve in reality. But stipulating that they do, then the desires of the babies are not fundamental, because if the baby grows up and learns more about reality, it will say, “it would have been right to eat me.”
I am pretty sure that people even in the original context brought attention to the fact that there are a great many ways that we treat children in which they do not want to be treated, to which no one at all objects (e.g. no one objects if you prevent a child from running out into the street, even if it wants to. And that is because the desires are not fundamental.)
Your objection is really something like, “but that desire must be fundamental because everything has the fundamental desire not to be eaten.” Perhaps. But as I said, that simply means that the situation is contrived and false.
The situation can happen with an intelligent species and a non-intelligent species, and has happened on earth—e.g. people kill and eat other animals. And although I do not object to people doing this, and I think it is morally right, I do not take “sides,” because I would change the values neither of the people nor of the animals. Both desires are good, and the behavior on both sides is right (although technically we should not be speaking of right and wrong in respect to non-rational creatures.)
It probably could not happen with two intelligent species, if only for economic reasons.
I don’t know. I wonder if some extra visualization would help.
Would you help catch the children so that their parents could eat them? If they pleaded with you, would you really think “if you were to live, you would one day agree this was good, therefore it is good, even though you don’t currently believe it to be?”
Why say the important desire is the one the child will one day have, instead of the one that the adult used to have?
I would certainly be less interested in aliens obtaining what is good for them, than in humans obtaining what is good for them. However, that said, the basic response (given Eliezer’s stipulations), is yes, I would, and yes I would really think that.
The adult has not only changed his desire, he has changed his mind as well, and he has done that through a normal process of growing up. So (again given Eliezer’s stipulations), it is just as reasonable to believe the adults here as it is to believe human adults. It is not a question of talking about whose desire is important, but whose opinion is correct.
We get the idea of “good” from the fact that we are tending to do various things, and we assume that those various things must have something in common that explains why we are tending to do all of them. We call that common thing “good.”
....a word which means a number of things, which are capable of conflicting with each other. Moral good refers to things that are beneficial at the group level, but which individuals tend not to do without encouragement.
“It sounds like you’re saying that you personally value sentient beings fulfilling their fundamental desires.” Yes.
“Do you also value a sentient being fulfilling its fundamental desire to eliminate sentient beings that value sentient beings that fulfill their fundamental desires?”
No sentient being has, or can have (at least in a normal way) that desire as a “fundamental desire.” It should be obvious why such a value cannot evolve, if you consider the matter physically. Considered from my point of view, it cannot evolve precisely because it is an evil desire.
Also, it is important here that we are speaking of “fundamental” desires, in that a particular sentient being sometimes has a particular desire for something bad, due to some kind of mistake or bad situation. (E.g. a murderer has the desire to kill someone, but that desire is not fundamental.)
“You have some members of a species who want to eat their innocent, thinking children, and you have some innocent, thinking children who don’t want to be eaten. On what grounds do you side with the eaters?”
As I said in another comment, the babyeater situation is contrived, and most likely it is impossible for those values to evolve in reality. But stipulating that they do, then the desires of the babies are not fundamental, because if the baby grows up and learns more about reality, it will say, “it would have been right to eat me.”
I am pretty sure that people even in the original context brought attention to the fact that there are a great many ways that we treat children in which they do not want to be treated, to which no one at all objects (e.g. no one objects if you prevent a child from running out into the street, even if it wants to. And that is because the desires are not fundamental.)
Your objection is really something like, “but that desire must be fundamental because everything has the fundamental desire not to be eaten.” Perhaps. But as I said, that simply means that the situation is contrived and false.
The situation can happen with an intelligent species and a non-intelligent species, and has happened on earth—e.g. people kill and eat other animals. And although I do not object to people doing this, and I think it is morally right, I do not take “sides,” because I would change the values neither of the people nor of the animals. Both desires are good, and the behavior on both sides is right (although technically we should not be speaking of right and wrong in respect to non-rational creatures.)
It probably could not happen with two intelligent species, if only for economic reasons.
I don’t know. I wonder if some extra visualization would help.
Would you help catch the children so that their parents could eat them? If they pleaded with you, would you really think “if you were to live, you would one day agree this was good, therefore it is good, even though you don’t currently believe it to be?”
Why say the important desire is the one the child will one day have, instead of the one that the adult used to have?
I would certainly be less interested in aliens obtaining what is good for them, than in humans obtaining what is good for them. However, that said, the basic response (given Eliezer’s stipulations), is yes, I would, and yes I would really think that.
The adult has not only changed his desire, he has changed his mind as well, and he has done that through a normal process of growing up. So (again given Eliezer’s stipulations), it is just as reasonable to believe the adults here as it is to believe human adults. It is not a question of talking about whose desire is important, but whose opinion is correct.
....a word which means a number of things, which are capable of conflicting with each other. Moral good refers to things that are beneficial at the group level, but which individuals tend not to do without encouragement.