You read that comment completely out of context and also you seem unaware that at first I was not getting constructive criticism. People only started criticizing me after I decided I was tired of unexplained downvotes and started to advertise in various places (at the ends of my discussion posts, and in my various comments expressing an interest in being challenged intellectually) that I genuinely want honest criticism. My experience is that LessWrong members needed to be convinced that it really was okay to criticize me before they started giving me the large amount of helpful feedback you’re seeing. You’re very bold, Wedrifid, so you probably figure other people are as comfortable criticizing others as you are. Maybe you think I must have been getting bold criticisms this whole time. I wasn’t.
The context in which I wrote that comment was this: I was explaining that OTHER new people don’t get feedback, in order to explain that the downvotes aren’t training them. If you think about it, you even said in your own post that it was the explanation that people use to improve themselves. The votes aren’t the same as verbal feedback. Are the other newbies getting the kind of feedback I am? I bet most of them aren’t. I was outgoing enough to guess that the reason I wasn’t getting feedback is because people didn’t feel comfortable criticizing me and chose to begin advertising that I want honest criticisms. I doubt most of your newbies are doing the same thing. Try an experiment. Make a new account. Post things people won’t like. See how many of them actually get verbal feedback. Then, advertise that you want constructive criticism. Post the same number of things people won’t like, and count how many of those got you verbal feedback.
I find your perspective on vendettas and duty refreshing, so thank you. Your comment makes me feel glad that you think I am worth saving. But since you intended to save me from my own stupidity, I feel a little annoyed that you thought I needed it. Do you observe from my behaviors that I do not apply constructive criticism? That I whine about problems rather than contributing to the solution? My intent was to notify you guys that without feedback, the downvotes don’t train newbies. People seem to think they do, but unless people tell you their reasons for pressing the button, it’s just a flurry of numbers. The power is not in vote buttons, it’s in clear communication.
I definitely want to know when I make a mistake, but if you find yourself typing something to me like “oh, come on” or “are you really” in the future, please consider that I may not actually be stupid enough to warrant it. Thanks.
I’m not sure to what extent I did that, but in any case I have a core disagreement with the claim that downvotes do not train newbies. My expectation is that the simple feedback mechanism increases the speed at which newbies absorb local norms and all my observations thus far confirm this. It isn’t the only thing that teaches newbies and it isn’t a perfect mechanism but it certainly helps. Most people don’t like getting downvotes and are take action to avoid them.
The context in which I wrote that comment was this: I was explaining that OTHER new people don’t get feedback, in order to explain that the downvotes aren’t training them.
My position is that even in the absence of any explicit verbal feedback downvotes do train newbies (and non-newbies). Verbal explanations can also help (and sometimes hinder). I expect that there is plenty of scope for improving newbie learning through constructive feedback—this is something that complements and works alongside the karma system, not something made necessary because the the karma system is completely ineffective for the purpose.
But since you intended to save me from my own stupidity, I feel a little annoyed that you thought I needed it.
It is almost always a bad idea to use oneself as an example when making any kind of general criticism of the karma system. Disagreement will inevitably seem personal!
My intent was to notify you guys that without feedback, the downvotes don’t train newbies. People seem to think they do, but unless people tell you their reasons for pressing the button, it’s just a flurry of numbers. The power is not in vote buttons, it’s in clear communication.
I disagreed. This is a testable prediction but not easily so. With a suitably designed experiment I would predict a greater degree of learning in the voted on but not explained group than you would. To be clear I think the power is in the vote buttons AND in clear communicaiton.
I definitely want to know when I make a mistake, but if you find yourself typing something to me like “oh, come on” or “are you really” in the future, please consider that I may not actually be stupid enough to warrant it. Thanks.
I am of course willing to use different phrasing. I was intending to convey that it is well within your capability to avoid downvotes if that was a task you set for yourself. It is legitimate to have other higher priorities than avoiding downvotes but those who are not trying to avoid them may appear not to be learning from them. That is, I was questioning that the “Ephiphany” anecdote is an indication that newbies do not learn from downvotes because they don’t have enough information. I acknowledge from the parent that you are referring to earlier experience prior to you changing the way you interact and so the above is less applicable.
You read that comment completely out of context and also you seem unaware that at first I was not getting constructive criticism. People only started criticizing me after I decided I was tired of unexplained downvotes and started to advertise in various places (at the ends of my discussion posts, and in my various comments expressing an interest in being challenged intellectually) that I genuinely want honest criticism. My experience is that LessWrong members needed to be convinced that it really was okay to criticize me before they started giving me the large amount of helpful feedback you’re seeing. You’re very bold, Wedrifid, so you probably figure other people are as comfortable criticizing others as you are. Maybe you think I must have been getting bold criticisms this whole time. I wasn’t.
The context in which I wrote that comment was this: I was explaining that OTHER new people don’t get feedback, in order to explain that the downvotes aren’t training them. If you think about it, you even said in your own post that it was the explanation that people use to improve themselves. The votes aren’t the same as verbal feedback. Are the other newbies getting the kind of feedback I am? I bet most of them aren’t. I was outgoing enough to guess that the reason I wasn’t getting feedback is because people didn’t feel comfortable criticizing me and chose to begin advertising that I want honest criticisms. I doubt most of your newbies are doing the same thing. Try an experiment. Make a new account. Post things people won’t like. See how many of them actually get verbal feedback. Then, advertise that you want constructive criticism. Post the same number of things people won’t like, and count how many of those got you verbal feedback.
I find your perspective on vendettas and duty refreshing, so thank you. Your comment makes me feel glad that you think I am worth saving. But since you intended to save me from my own stupidity, I feel a little annoyed that you thought I needed it. Do you observe from my behaviors that I do not apply constructive criticism? That I whine about problems rather than contributing to the solution? My intent was to notify you guys that without feedback, the downvotes don’t train newbies. People seem to think they do, but unless people tell you their reasons for pressing the button, it’s just a flurry of numbers. The power is not in vote buttons, it’s in clear communication.
I definitely want to know when I make a mistake, but if you find yourself typing something to me like “oh, come on” or “are you really” in the future, please consider that I may not actually be stupid enough to warrant it. Thanks.
I’m not sure to what extent I did that, but in any case I have a core disagreement with the claim that downvotes do not train newbies. My expectation is that the simple feedback mechanism increases the speed at which newbies absorb local norms and all my observations thus far confirm this. It isn’t the only thing that teaches newbies and it isn’t a perfect mechanism but it certainly helps. Most people don’t like getting downvotes and are take action to avoid them.
My position is that even in the absence of any explicit verbal feedback downvotes do train newbies (and non-newbies). Verbal explanations can also help (and sometimes hinder). I expect that there is plenty of scope for improving newbie learning through constructive feedback—this is something that complements and works alongside the karma system, not something made necessary because the the karma system is completely ineffective for the purpose.
It is almost always a bad idea to use oneself as an example when making any kind of general criticism of the karma system. Disagreement will inevitably seem personal!
I disagreed. This is a testable prediction but not easily so. With a suitably designed experiment I would predict a greater degree of learning in the voted on but not explained group than you would. To be clear I think the power is in the vote buttons AND in clear communicaiton.
I am of course willing to use different phrasing. I was intending to convey that it is well within your capability to avoid downvotes if that was a task you set for yourself. It is legitimate to have other higher priorities than avoiding downvotes but those who are not trying to avoid them may appear not to be learning from them. That is, I was questioning that the “Ephiphany” anecdote is an indication that newbies do not learn from downvotes because they don’t have enough information. I acknowledge from the parent that you are referring to earlier experience prior to you changing the way you interact and so the above is less applicable.