@leggi, thanks, I think the key thing here is that BCG isn’t used to protect you against TB here, but broadly boost your immune system. I found a bunch of papers on this (admittedly, many about youth, but also some on the elderly getting BCG):
The efficacy of Bacillus Calmette-Guerin vaccinations for the prevention of acute upper respiratory tract infection in the elderly.
AIM: to study the efficacy of BCG vaccinations, once a month for 3 consecutive months, in elderly on the prevention of acute upper respiratory tract infection (AURTI), interferon—gamma (IFN-γ) and interleukin (IL)-10 level in the BCG and placebo group and their comparison in the period of the study.
CONCLUSION: BCG vaccinations in elderly, once a month for 3 consecutive months, significantly prevent the AURTI and can increase the IFN-γ level as Th1 response and IL-10 as Treg response in the period of the study.
BCG has also been used for decades to boost immune system in fight against gallbladder cancer, as immunotherapy:
a) we know the safety profile of BCG, and people can evaluate if they’re at risk of any adverse reactions (largely minimal) from getting it, and
b) it does seem to boost immune system, broadly and against the upper tract respiratory infections in the elderly (in addition to many other studied benefits for youth)
It seems that the negative costs of getting it (refreshed) are nearly 0, whereas the benefits are >0 and potentially great. On this basis, the recommendation makes sense, IMO (for anyone who isn’t at a risk of some complication from BCG, based on the safety profile).
The top set of links aren’t working but the study to URTI rates is very interesting.
Firstly for the use of 3 doses a month apart—one dose is the standard for BCG.
I had a BCG at about 7 years old due to contact with a diagnosed TB case. Age 11 I had a positive reaction to the tuberculin skin test (Mantoux) but still got given a second dose, even though I told the school nurse it wasn’t recommended - cocky little sh!t even back then and I’m sure she stamped me twice as punishment… Now thinking good for me!
Also, that there was a strong immune response in elderly subjects who tend to be considered as having a weaker immune system overall.
Testing at 6 months from 1st dose:
There were significant increase of IFN-γ and IL-10 levels in the BCG group compared to the placebo group. There were insignificant increase of IFN-γ and IL-10 levels in the pre- and post-BCG group
Memory B cells are present “for decades” so for those that have received the BCG this effect should apply.
For bladder cancer:
BCG is put right into the bladder through a catheter.
A different mode of action than a standard BCG vaccination, not so much boosting the immune system but drawing attention to the cancer cells in a localised manner.
Regarding the “cytokine storm” seen in severe patients—would previous vaccination make this worse? Musings, no idea what reality will be. But countries with vaccination programs v. those without should provide some interesting data.
Did you come across any information about any specific antibodies have been associated with COVID19?
@leggi, thanks, I think the key thing here is that BCG isn’t used to protect you against TB here, but broadly boost your immune system. I found a bunch of papers on this (admittedly, many about youth, but also some on the elderly getting BCG):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25725054https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21979284https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27737834https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1931312817305462?via%3Dihubhttps://science.sciencemag.org/content/352/6284/aaf1098https://www.bmj.com/content/355/bmj.i5170https://www.who.int/immunization/sage/meetings/2014/april/3_NSE_Epidemiology_review_Report_to_SAGE_14_Mar_FINAL.pdfhttps://www.bandim.org/-/media/arkiv/projekt-sites/bandim/pdf/bhp-vaccines.pdf?la=enhttps://www.clinicaltherapeutics.com/article/S0149-2918(13)00014-3/pdfhttps://www.mpg.de/14491738/0219-mpin-116799-modified-tuberculosis-vaccine-as-a-therapy-for-cancer-of-the-bladder
What I want to call out in the context of the elderly:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21979284
BCG has also been used for decades to boost immune system in fight against gallbladder cancer, as immunotherapy:
https://www.cancer.org/cancer/bladder-cancer/treating/intravesical-therapy.html
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/17908-bacillus-calmette-guerin-bcg-treatment-for-non-muscle-invasive-bladder-cancer
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4427258/
So given that
a) we know the safety profile of BCG, and people can evaluate if they’re at risk of any adverse reactions (largely minimal) from getting it, and
b) it does seem to boost immune system, broadly and against the upper tract respiratory infections in the elderly (in addition to many other studied benefits for youth)
It seems that the negative costs of getting it (refreshed) are nearly 0, whereas the benefits are >0 and potentially great. On this basis, the recommendation makes sense, IMO (for anyone who isn’t at a risk of some complication from BCG, based on the safety profile).
The top set of links aren’t working but the study to URTI rates is very interesting.
Firstly for the use of 3 doses a month apart—one dose is the standard for BCG.
I had a BCG at about 7 years old due to contact with a diagnosed TB case. Age 11 I had a positive reaction to the tuberculin skin test (Mantoux) but still got given a second dose, even though I told the school nurse it wasn’t recommended - cocky little sh!t even back then and I’m sure she stamped me twice as punishment… Now thinking good for me!
Also, that there was a strong immune response in elderly subjects who tend to be considered as having a weaker immune system overall.
Testing at 6 months from 1st dose:
Memory B cells are present “for decades” so for those that have received the BCG this effect should apply.
For bladder cancer:
A different mode of action than a standard BCG vaccination, not so much boosting the immune system but drawing attention to the cancer cells in a localised manner.
Regarding the “cytokine storm” seen in severe patients—would previous vaccination make this worse? Musings, no idea what reality will be. But countries with vaccination programs v. those without should provide some interesting data.
Did you come across any information about any specific antibodies have been associated with COVID19?