The easiest steelman I can think of (as distinct from “the most convincing steelman”, “the strongest steelman”, etc.) is just to observe that the Soviet Union—the paradigmatic communist country—was, while certainly worse than capitalist countries in some ways, also better than capitalist countries in some other ways.
Note: this is not a claim that the USSR was better on net, or that it was good (whatever such an absolute claim might mean), or that living in it was preferable to living in a capitalist country, etc., etc. Only that it wasn’t strictly worse; that on some dimensions, it was superior.
This suggests (though does not prove!) that there’s something of value in communism, that it’s not literally worse in all respects, strictly dominated by capitalism, and discardable without any loss whatsoever.
This is a very weak claim! And it’s also not clear what to do with this claim, even if we believe it to be true. But it does present a clear obstacle to simply dismissing communism and calling it a day.
I also keep hearing China mentioned as the current paradigmatic Communist state ( or at least that it’s on the way, if you disregard censorship, mass surveillance etc)
I know I’m replying super late but just remembered this thread.
I’d point to life expectancy metrics: Russia pre WWI/revolution was 33 (number from 1915) by 1965 it was 68 China pre revolution was 40 (number from 1950) by 1990 it was 69
Some of the biggest accomplishments of the 20th century IMO.
Re: China, especially now, it’s definitely not communism or socialism by any strict definition (more like state capitalism). Socialism requires the abolition of privately owned productive property (raw materials, real estate, machinery, infrastructure). The point being that instead of getting “one dollar one vote” shaping the economy, you get “one person one vote” shaping the economy. The socialist vision is about continuously reshaping institutions to reinforce democracy, using that democracy to prune out projects people don’t want, then reaping the benefits of an economy more aligned with human will. The revolution can’t stop, it’s a continuous process of challenge that must be actively pursued, humanity in dialogue with itself.
In any case, whatever China is doing is working better than the American model. They win on many objective metrics (lifespan, infrastructure, homelessness, violent crime, prison population, killing people/exploiting other countries, etc.) There are some scary policies, but I can’t help but wonder what it would feel like to live in a country where things are actually getting better around you.
The easiest steelman I can think of (as distinct from “the most convincing steelman”, “the strongest steelman”, etc.) is just to observe that the Soviet Union—the paradigmatic communist country—was, while certainly worse than capitalist countries in some ways, also better than capitalist countries in some other ways.
Note: this is not a claim that the USSR was better on net, or that it was good (whatever such an absolute claim might mean), or that living in it was preferable to living in a capitalist country, etc., etc. Only that it wasn’t strictly worse; that on some dimensions, it was superior.
This suggests (though does not prove!) that there’s something of value in communism, that it’s not literally worse in all respects, strictly dominated by capitalism, and discardable without any loss whatsoever.
This is a very weak claim! And it’s also not clear what to do with this claim, even if we believe it to be true. But it does present a clear obstacle to simply dismissing communism and calling it a day.
Could you elaborate on ways it could be/was better?
Is the Nordic model closer to Capitalism 2.0 ?
I also keep hearing China mentioned as the current paradigmatic Communist state ( or at least that it’s on the way, if you disregard censorship, mass surveillance etc)
I know I’m replying super late but just remembered this thread.
I’d point to life expectancy metrics:
Russia pre WWI/revolution was 33 (number from 1915)
by 1965 it was 68
China pre revolution was 40 (number from 1950)
by 1990 it was 69
Some of the biggest accomplishments of the 20th century IMO.
Re: China, especially now, it’s definitely not communism or socialism by any strict definition (more like state capitalism). Socialism requires the abolition of privately owned productive property (raw materials, real estate, machinery, infrastructure). The point being that instead of getting “one dollar one vote” shaping the economy, you get “one person one vote” shaping the economy. The socialist vision is about continuously reshaping institutions to reinforce democracy, using that democracy to prune out projects people don’t want, then reaping the benefits of an economy more aligned with human will. The revolution can’t stop, it’s a continuous process of challenge that must be actively pursued, humanity in dialogue with itself.
In any case, whatever China is doing is working better than the American model. They win on many objective metrics (lifespan, infrastructure, homelessness, violent crime, prison population, killing people/exploiting other countries, etc.) There are some scary policies, but I can’t help but wonder what it would feel like to live in a country where things are actually getting better around you.