I don’t think it’s useful to argue about the word “elitism” any longer. I think most people already agree with most of the points in your post about “elitism” except for the actual actions we should take as a result.
I think that the problem with making a beginner and advanced section is basically shame. In lieu of a quantifiable metric that classifies people into the two sections (not likely) it’s going to be very hard for people in the “lower” section to admit that the people in the “higher” section are actually better writers or smarter or more rational or whatever, even if they are. The foundation of anti-intellectualism in the real world is a bunch of people in lower sections sneering at people in higher sections. With that as a backdrop, I don’t think that the lower section would be a fertile place for actual self-improvement.
You are grossly over-simplifying anti-intellectualism, some streams of which are extremely valuable. Your claim only fits the “thalamic anti-intellectual”, one of at least five broad types Eric Raymond discusses.
The most important and useful to society is the “epistemic-skeptical anti-intellectual. His complaint is that intellectuals are too prone to overestimate their own cleverness and attempt to commit society to vast utopian schemes that invariably end badly.” Of course lefties who want to change society to fit their theories try to smear them with claims like yours, but:
Because it’s extremely difficult to make people like F. A. Hayek or Thomas Sowell look stupid enough to be thalamic or totalitarian enough to be totalizers, the usual form of dishonest attack intellectuals use against epistemic skeptics is to accuse them of being traditionalists covertly intent on preserving some existing set of power relationships. Every libertarian who has ever been accused of conservatism knows about this one up close and personal.
And:
“If “intellectuals” really want to understand and defeat anti-intellectualism, they need to start by looking in the mirror. They have brought this hostility on themselves by serving their own civilization so poorly. Until they face that fact, and abandon their neo-clericalist presumptions, “anti-intellectualism” will continue to get not only more intense, but more deserved.”
You sound like you’ve researched this. If I wanted to get a really good idea of what both sides mean by elitism and understand the problem better, is there some reading you could recommend for that?
Thanks for this link. I think it just boils down to more arguing about words—as far as I can tell, I agree with what you and he are actually saying, but I was using “intellectual” more sloppily to refer to people who interact with culture via argument, ideas, and art, regardless of whether they dabble in politics, perform what Eric criticizes as “ceaseless questioning,” or whether they have an inclination toward “vast utopian schemes.” It was sort of a throwaway remark and not very well thought-through.
Actually, I’ve had multiple responses (to other threads) where people confidently state that the other people think this or that, and they’re completely, verifiable wrong. I’ve got people saying stuff in this thread like many here are fine with being called “elitist” which is a fundamental disagreement with my stance—I’m not fine with it and I think it makes LessWrong look bad. I think there’s some confusion over what my main point is. I made a lot of points, so that may be why. For these reasons, I created an elitism poll which I hope will help me understand what people think on the most important points.
In lieu of a quantifiable metric that classifies people into the two sections (not likely) it’s going to be very hard for people in the “lower” section to admit that the people in the “higher” section are actually better writers or smarter or more rational or whatever, even if they are.
A test won’t deter ignorant cheaters, but they can force them to educate themselves. Questions can be worded in such a way that they serve as a crash course in reasoning in the event that someone posts a cheat sheet or registrants look up all the answers on the internet.
Some would be motivated to barrel through it even though they’re not good at rational thought, but at least then they’d probably begin to get an idea of what an advanced rationalist is like. I think a lot of people would choose to hang back because such a questionnaire would make it seem too challenging to those who haven’t developed their abilities yet. If you’d like to criticize that idea, I’d appreciate it, but it will be much easier for me to find that criticism later if it’s on the endless September thread.
I don’t think it’s useful to argue about the word “elitism” any longer. I think most people already agree with most of the points in your post about “elitism” except for the actual actions we should take as a result.
I think that the problem with making a beginner and advanced section is basically shame. In lieu of a quantifiable metric that classifies people into the two sections (not likely) it’s going to be very hard for people in the “lower” section to admit that the people in the “higher” section are actually better writers or smarter or more rational or whatever, even if they are. The foundation of anti-intellectualism in the real world is a bunch of people in lower sections sneering at people in higher sections. With that as a backdrop, I don’t think that the lower section would be a fertile place for actual self-improvement.
You are grossly over-simplifying anti-intellectualism, some streams of which are extremely valuable. Your claim only fits the “thalamic anti-intellectual”, one of at least five broad types Eric Raymond discusses.
The most important and useful to society is the “epistemic-skeptical anti-intellectual. His complaint is that intellectuals are too prone to overestimate their own cleverness and attempt to commit society to vast utopian schemes that invariably end badly.” Of course lefties who want to change society to fit their theories try to smear them with claims like yours, but:
And:
You sound like you’ve researched this. If I wanted to get a really good idea of what both sides mean by elitism and understand the problem better, is there some reading you could recommend for that?
Interesting link, however, this looks like a tangent. If this is more related than I realize, please point out the connection.
Thanks for this link. I think it just boils down to more arguing about words—as far as I can tell, I agree with what you and he are actually saying, but I was using “intellectual” more sloppily to refer to people who interact with culture via argument, ideas, and art, regardless of whether they dabble in politics, perform what Eric criticizes as “ceaseless questioning,” or whether they have an inclination toward “vast utopian schemes.” It was sort of a throwaway remark and not very well thought-through.
That’s an interesting point, and I added that to the cliff notes version of my endless September idea list. I’m currently taking more suggestions for pros and cons to add to the list, or new ideas.
Actually, I’ve had multiple responses (to other threads) where people confidently state that the other people think this or that, and they’re completely, verifiable wrong. I’ve got people saying stuff in this thread like many here are fine with being called “elitist” which is a fundamental disagreement with my stance—I’m not fine with it and I think it makes LessWrong look bad. I think there’s some confusion over what my main point is. I made a lot of points, so that may be why. For these reasons, I created an elitism poll which I hope will help me understand what people think on the most important points.
I suggested a test in Preventing discussion from being watered down by an “endless September” user influx
Some would be motivated to barrel through it even though they’re not good at rational thought, but at least then they’d probably begin to get an idea of what an advanced rationalist is like. I think a lot of people would choose to hang back because such a questionnaire would make it seem too challenging to those who haven’t developed their abilities yet. If you’d like to criticize that idea, I’d appreciate it, but it will be much easier for me to find that criticism later if it’s on the endless September thread.