The word “elitist” has political connotations. It is often used in right wing political discourse as a slur against liberals. For example the phrase “intellectual elite” is used a great deal in this article defending Sarah Palin. Some of these upvotes may be made by people who interpret “do you think elitism is bad” as asking “Do you hate university professors and would you vote for Sarah Palin?”
Thank you for pointing this out. I don’t bother with politics, (I quit being interested a long time ago when I realized that nothing was being solved and no one was looking for solutions that would get to the root of the problem because they seemed to prefer squabbling) so I didn’t know that.
I see now that it’s something I really need to learn more about if I want to understand elitism better. And I do. Would you mind explaining more or, if you know of good reading materials, direct me?
it’s something I really need to learn more about if I want to understand elitism better. And I do.
I think it’s more useful to first better understand the reasons for wanting to understand “elitism” better. (I expect you are wrong in believing that it’s a project worth working on.)
I bring up the political connotations because I don’t think Less Wrong is particularly snobbish or exclusionary, and I think there are more flattering reasons why someone might choose to label themselves as “elitist”.
Personally, I think the word “elitist” is too politically charged and emotionally laden to be of much use.
There are a few different questions that the word lumps in together, I outline them below and my opinion of them.
Question 1. Should this site be hostile towards new members? (No)
Question 2. Should this site praise intelligence and rationality? (Yes)
Question 3. What privileges should those regarded as particularly rational receive? (No formal privileges)
Question 4. How concerned should we be with trying to preserve the current culture? (Somewhat, but not to the extent of making people feel small)
It’s interesting that “elitist” doesn’t strike me as being politically charged—I would even be hard-pressed to tell whether it seems more left-wing or right-wing (if it wasn’t for your comment, I’d tend to call it slightly right-wing).
Maybe it’s because elitism vs. anti-intellectualism isn’t as much of a hot political issue here in France; maybe French people (or French politicians?) are less hung-up about seeming elitist than people in lesser countries.
This article seems to indicate a clear cultural difference between at least France and the US on the issue of elitism.
Wow that’s interesting. Thank you for the article. Do the French find it horrible when intelligent people end up on the wrong educational tier? What is thought about those who are unhappy because they’re brighter than their tier allows them to be?
Eh, I don’t know enough to answer you with much confidence on that, sorry.
There are some significant differences between the French and American educational sytems: we have the bac, a national standardized exam everybody takes at the end of high school, and getting a good grade at that can open a lot of doors, so is often a “way out” for a smart kid in a bad environment. Also, there are many good colleges with nearly free education, so French students typically graduate with waaay less debt than American ones, and you don’t often hear of people who cut their education short because they were poor. Socialism: it works, bitches :D (disclaimer: I don’t identify as a socialist and don’t want to start a flame war, I just like poking fun at Americans).
Also, from what I’ve heard of Americans, I got the impression that smart kids would feel “held back” because the system cared more about not preventing the dumb kids from being left behind than about stimulating the smart kids, resulting in some smart kids getting bored out of their minds. I think that’s less of a concern in France, it seems to be more of an American thing.
Overall I have a pretty low opinion of the American system, and concerns about my kid’s education is one reason why I am reticent to move to the US (despite all the things that the US does better than France). And I get the impression that concerns of “elitism” may be partly behind the low quality of the American system.
But then, I haven’t researched the topic in much depth (prior to this conversation, I wasn’t aware that “elitism” sounded all that bad to Americans); it would be interesting to look at the British system, that is probably a bit closer to the French system than to the American one. The Chinese system is probably even more extreme than the French one, and Chinese people coming to France have a bit of the same reaction that I have when hearing about the American system—those people are crazy and lazy!
The word “elitist” has political connotations. It is often used in right wing political discourse as a slur against liberals. For example the phrase “intellectual elite” is used a great deal in this article defending Sarah Palin. Some of these upvotes may be made by people who interpret “do you think elitism is bad” as asking “Do you hate university professors and would you vote for Sarah Palin?”
Thank you for pointing this out. I don’t bother with politics, (I quit being interested a long time ago when I realized that nothing was being solved and no one was looking for solutions that would get to the root of the problem because they seemed to prefer squabbling) so I didn’t know that.
I see now that it’s something I really need to learn more about if I want to understand elitism better. And I do. Would you mind explaining more or, if you know of good reading materials, direct me?
I think it’s more useful to first better understand the reasons for wanting to understand “elitism” better. (I expect you are wrong in believing that it’s a project worth working on.)
On the political use, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_elite
I bring up the political connotations because I don’t think Less Wrong is particularly snobbish or exclusionary, and I think there are more flattering reasons why someone might choose to label themselves as “elitist”.
Personally, I think the word “elitist” is too politically charged and emotionally laden to be of much use. There are a few different questions that the word lumps in together, I outline them below and my opinion of them.
Question 1. Should this site be hostile towards new members? (No)
Question 2. Should this site praise intelligence and rationality? (Yes)
Question 3. What privileges should those regarded as particularly rational receive? (No formal privileges)
Question 4. How concerned should we be with trying to preserve the current culture? (Somewhat, but not to the extent of making people feel small)
It’s interesting that “elitist” doesn’t strike me as being politically charged—I would even be hard-pressed to tell whether it seems more left-wing or right-wing (if it wasn’t for your comment, I’d tend to call it slightly right-wing).
Maybe it’s because elitism vs. anti-intellectualism isn’t as much of a hot political issue here in France; maybe French people (or French politicians?) are less hung-up about seeming elitist than people in lesser countries.
This article seems to indicate a clear cultural difference between at least France and the US on the issue of elitism.
Wow that’s interesting. Thank you for the article. Do the French find it horrible when intelligent people end up on the wrong educational tier? What is thought about those who are unhappy because they’re brighter than their tier allows them to be?
Eh, I don’t know enough to answer you with much confidence on that, sorry.
There are some significant differences between the French and American educational sytems: we have the bac, a national standardized exam everybody takes at the end of high school, and getting a good grade at that can open a lot of doors, so is often a “way out” for a smart kid in a bad environment. Also, there are many good colleges with nearly free education, so French students typically graduate with waaay less debt than American ones, and you don’t often hear of people who cut their education short because they were poor. Socialism: it works, bitches :D (disclaimer: I don’t identify as a socialist and don’t want to start a flame war, I just like poking fun at Americans).
Also, from what I’ve heard of Americans, I got the impression that smart kids would feel “held back” because the system cared more about not preventing the dumb kids from being left behind than about stimulating the smart kids, resulting in some smart kids getting bored out of their minds. I think that’s less of a concern in France, it seems to be more of an American thing.
Overall I have a pretty low opinion of the American system, and concerns about my kid’s education is one reason why I am reticent to move to the US (despite all the things that the US does better than France). And I get the impression that concerns of “elitism” may be partly behind the low quality of the American system.
But then, I haven’t researched the topic in much depth (prior to this conversation, I wasn’t aware that “elitism” sounded all that bad to Americans); it would be interesting to look at the British system, that is probably a bit closer to the French system than to the American one. The Chinese system is probably even more extreme than the French one, and Chinese people coming to France have a bit of the same reaction that I have when hearing about the American system—those people are crazy and lazy!