Red is a color” and cuts themselves off and says “Red is what that stop sign and that fire engine have in common
They are both physical objects, usually containing some metal and of roughly the same height, that have the ability to stop traffic, thus are found on a road, and have the colors of silver and white and (presumably by the specification of “that”) also red in common?
(by which the indignant demand that others agree with their indignation), which is unfortunately how I tended to write back when I was writing the original Less Wrong sequences
(sarcasm) Really? I hadn’t noticed in the slightest… (/sarcasm)
What would be an exercise which develops that habit?
Talking with people that do not agree with you as though they were people. That is taking what they say seriously and trying to understand why they are saying what they say. Asking questions helps. Also, assume that they have reasons that seem rational to them for what they say or do, even if you disagree.
This also helps in actually reasoning with people. To show that something is irrational, it is needed to show that it is irrational within the system that they are using, not your own. Bashing someone over the head with ones reasonings in ones own system doesn’t (usually) work (unless one believes there is an absolute correct reasoning system that is universally verifiable, understandable, and acceptable to everyone (and the other person thinks likewise, or one happens to actually be right about that assumption)). Often times, such reasonings when translated to what the other person’s system is become utter nonsense. This is why materialists have such a hard time dealing with much of religion and platonic thought, and vice versa.
Taking as an assumption that the thing one is trying to show is irrational (or doesn’t exist) is actually irrational (or actually doesn’t exist) is perhaps the worst thing to do when constructing an argument meant to convince people that believe otherwise. For example see, The Amazing Virgin Birth and try and think of it from a Catholics perspective.
Talking with people that do not agree with you as though they were people. That is taking what they say seriously and trying to understand why they are saying what they say. Asking questions helps. Also, assume that they have reasons that seem rational to them for what they say or do, even if you disagree.
I think this is a very important point. If we can avoid seeing our political enemies as evil mutants, then hopefully we can avoid seeing our conversational opponents as irrational mutants. Even after discounting the possibility that you, personally, might be mistaken in your beliefs or reasoning, don’t assume that your opponent is hopelessly irrational. If you find yourself thinking, “How on earth can this person be so wrong!”, then change that exclamation mark into a question mark and actually try to answer that question.
If the most likely failure mode in your opponent’s thoughts can be traced back to a simple missing fact or one of the more tame biases, then supply the fact or explain the bias, and you might be able to make some headway.
If you trace the fault back to a fundamental belief - by which I mean one that can’t be changed over the course of the conversation—then bring the conversation to that level as quickly as possible, point out the true level of your disagreement, and say something to the effect of, “Okay, I see your point, and I understand your reasoning, but I’m afraid we disagree fundamentally on the existence of God / the likelihood of the Singularity / the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics / your support for the Parramatta Eels[1]. If you want to talk about that, I’m totally up for that, but there’s no point discussing religion / cryonics / wavefunction collapse / high tackles until we’ve settled that high-level point.”
There are a lot of very clever and otherwise quite rational people out there who have a few… unusual views on certain topics, and discounting them out of hand is cutting yourself off from their wisdom and experience, and denying them the chance to learn from you.
[1] Football isn’t a religion. It’s much more important than that.
(by which the indignant demand that others agree with their indignation), which is unfortunately how I tended to write back when I was writing the original Less Wrong sequences
(sarcasm) Really? I hadn’t noticed in the slightest… (/sarcasm)
It’s interesting that this (extremely rude) misinterpretation has sat here unnoticed for a year. The grammatical reasoning behind parentheses is that you can remove them from the sentence without changing its entire meaning. So Eliezer’s original phrasing becomes,
[...]to teach the procedural habit, you don’t go into the evolutionary psychology of politics or the game theory of punishing non-punishers [...], which is unfortunately how I tended to write back when I was writing the original Less Wrong sequences.
Which is not at all a thing to be scoffed at.
And no one noticed for a year, even though this is the first comment on the page.
But although Internet services themselves are, generally speaking, easy to learn and use, you will find yourself isolated on the Internet if you are not familiar with English. This means that knowledge or lack of knowledge of English is one of the most severe factors that cause polarization. Learning to use a new Internet service or user interface may take a few hours, a few days, or even weeks, but it takes years to learn a language so that you can use it in a fluent and self-confident manner. Of course, when you know some English, you can learn more just by using it on the Internet, but at least currently the general tendency among Internet users is to discourage people in their problems with the English language. Incorrect English causes a few flames much more probably than encouragement and friendly advice.
...which made me think of a five-second skill: when someone uses poor language or otherwise communicates strangely, instead of taking offense at their rudeness, try to figure out what they meant (interactively, if possible).
...which made me think of a five-second skill: when someone uses poor language or otherwise communicates strangely, instead of taking offense at their rudeness, try to figure out what they meant (interactively, if possible).
I usually also try to point out a more helpful phrasing—most non-native speakers who are trying to communicate in English seem appreciative.
Suggesting phrasings is a good way of interactively figuring out what they meant, and I recommend it for the purpose.
Suggesting phrasings to tell people how to say what they mean, on the other hand, bears a risk of being annoying and/or wrong. I think an attitude of seeking clarification is more likely to be successful.
(footnote: I have almost no relevant firsthand knowledge.)
They are both physical objects, usually containing some metal and of roughly the same height, that have the ability to stop traffic, thus are found on a road, and have the colors of silver and white and (presumably by the specification of “that”) also red in common?
(sarcasm) Really? I hadn’t noticed in the slightest… (/sarcasm)
Talking with people that do not agree with you as though they were people. That is taking what they say seriously and trying to understand why they are saying what they say. Asking questions helps. Also, assume that they have reasons that seem rational to them for what they say or do, even if you disagree.
This also helps in actually reasoning with people. To show that something is irrational, it is needed to show that it is irrational within the system that they are using, not your own. Bashing someone over the head with ones reasonings in ones own system doesn’t (usually) work (unless one believes there is an absolute correct reasoning system that is universally verifiable, understandable, and acceptable to everyone (and the other person thinks likewise, or one happens to actually be right about that assumption)). Often times, such reasonings when translated to what the other person’s system is become utter nonsense. This is why materialists have such a hard time dealing with much of religion and platonic thought, and vice versa.
Taking as an assumption that the thing one is trying to show is irrational (or doesn’t exist) is actually irrational (or actually doesn’t exist) is perhaps the worst thing to do when constructing an argument meant to convince people that believe otherwise. For example see, The Amazing Virgin Birth and try and think of it from a Catholics perspective.
I think this is a very important point. If we can avoid seeing our political enemies as evil mutants, then hopefully we can avoid seeing our conversational opponents as irrational mutants. Even after discounting the possibility that you, personally, might be mistaken in your beliefs or reasoning, don’t assume that your opponent is hopelessly irrational. If you find yourself thinking, “How on earth can this person be so wrong!”, then change that exclamation mark into a question mark and actually try to answer that question.
If the most likely failure mode in your opponent’s thoughts can be traced back to a simple missing fact or one of the more tame biases, then supply the fact or explain the bias, and you might be able to make some headway.
If you trace the fault back to a fundamental belief - by which I mean one that can’t be changed over the course of the conversation—then bring the conversation to that level as quickly as possible, point out the true level of your disagreement, and say something to the effect of, “Okay, I see your point, and I understand your reasoning, but I’m afraid we disagree fundamentally on the existence of God / the likelihood of the Singularity / the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics / your support for the Parramatta Eels[1]. If you want to talk about that, I’m totally up for that, but there’s no point discussing religion / cryonics / wavefunction collapse / high tackles until we’ve settled that high-level point.”
There are a lot of very clever and otherwise quite rational people out there who have a few… unusual views on certain topics, and discounting them out of hand is cutting yourself off from their wisdom and experience, and denying them the chance to learn from you.
[1] Football isn’t a religion. It’s much more important than that.
It’s interesting that this (extremely rude) misinterpretation has sat here unnoticed for a year. The grammatical reasoning behind parentheses is that you can remove them from the sentence without changing its entire meaning. So Eliezer’s original phrasing becomes,
Which is not at all a thing to be scoffed at.
And no one noticed for a year, even though this is the first comment on the page.
Communication always fails.
That “Communication always fails” article made me very happy.
Also, the “English—the universal language on the Internet?” article which was linked from it had this bit:
...which made me think of a five-second skill: when someone uses poor language or otherwise communicates strangely, instead of taking offense at their rudeness, try to figure out what they meant (interactively, if possible).
I usually also try to point out a more helpful phrasing—most non-native speakers who are trying to communicate in English seem appreciative.
Suggesting phrasings is a good way of interactively figuring out what they meant, and I recommend it for the purpose.
Suggesting phrasings to tell people how to say what they mean, on the other hand, bears a risk of being annoying and/or wrong. I think an attitude of seeking clarification is more likely to be successful.
(footnote: I have almost no relevant firsthand knowledge.)