The obvious question is, what about female partners, or group sex partners with the guy in question? Do they count against the girl?
I’m not seeing why the asymmetry means that the guy will end up in an unfavorable position even if he knows how to be attractive enough. Other than the girl finding the guy unattractive, I’m not sure what else you’re hinting at. Given that I like girls who have had large numbers of partners, is there anything else I need to know or do or be aware of?
Re: looks, are we talking the “blonde = ditzy, glasses = geeky” level of stereotype? Or are you talking about the way someone’s mood, shyness, introversion, and so forth can be read from body language? Or something as straightforward as someone wearing a lot of makeup spent a lot of time on her appearance, and thus probably wants attention/cares what people think of her a lot?
The only “discourse breakdown” I’ve seen is the crowd that thinks any attempt to improve dating skills is fake and evil, and I don’t really care about them. I think we’re past the reflexive “pickup = evil” by now. I’d really like to hear this stuff talked about in plainer and more concrete ways, or at least PM me with a few specifics!
One idea: we’ve had a thread on LW where people post their online dating profiles for feedback. I think it’d be an interesting game to post pictures of people, either ours or other random pictures, and see what kind of guesses we come up with about them based on clues from their appearance.
The obvious question is, what about female partners, or group sex partners with the guy in question? Do they count against the girl?
Why would it be “obvious”? Even completely ignoring these questions still leads to useful insight for the majority of cases in practice.
To answer your question, we’d need to get into a discussion of the motivational mechanisms of the behaviors you mention, but that is certain to lead to even more controversial questions, which I’d really prefer not to get into.
I’m not seeing why the asymmetry means that the guy will end up in an unfavorable position even if he knows how to be attractive enough. Other than the girl finding the guy unattractive, I’m not sure what else you’re hinting at. Given that I like girls who have had large numbers of partners, is there anything else I need to know or do or be aware of?
That depends on what exactly you’re aiming for. Saying “I like girls who [have the characteristic X]” sounds as if you like such girls for non-serious, shorter-term relationships in which you have the upper hand. Clearly, you shouldn’t worry too much if it’s really just a throwaway relationship that will soon end one way or another. (Still, you should watch for traits that indicate propensity for troublesome behaviors that can get you into unpleasant situations, or even serious problems, even in the context of such a relationship. What’s indicated by sheer partner count in this regard, independent of the mechanism I described earlier, is another can of worms I’d rather not open.)
On the other hand, if you’re aiming for a committed relationship, a woman’s high number of previous partners (which in fact doesn’t even have to be extremely high) definitely makes the deck stacked against you. This follows from the basic statistics of the situation, and “if he knows how to be attractive enough” is a can-opener assumption in this context.
The only “discourse breakdown” I’ve seen is the crowd that thinks any attempt to improve dating skills is fake and evil, and I don’t really care about them. I think we’re past the reflexive “pickup = evil” by now. I’d really like to hear this stuff talked about in plainer and more concrete ways, or at least PM me with a few specifics!
In fact, the situation has gotten significantly worse on LW in this regard since I started commenting here around two years ago. Back then, it seemed to me like discussions of these topics on LW might result in interesting insight whose worth would be greater than the trouble. However, ever since then, a string of ever worse and more cringe-worthy failures that occurred whenever these topics were opened has convinced me in the opposite.
As for the specifics and straight talk, there are plenty of blogs and forums where such things can be discussed ad infinitum. (Though admittedly these days none are anywhere as good as what could be found during the heyday of the contrarian blogosphere some years ago.) I really don’t see any point in trying to open them in a forum like this one, which has conclusively shown to be a bad place for them.
Why would it be “obvious”? Even completely ignoring these questions still leads to useful insight for the majority of cases in practice.
It was the first thought I had. The association in my mind went something like
girl with lots of partners ---> girl is sexually awesome ---> female partners and group sex ---> if someone thinks having multiple partners is bad, is that bad?
Saying “I like girls who [have the characteristic X]” sounds as if you like such girls for non-serious, shorter-term relationships in which you have the upper hand
No, I meant long term.
To answer your question, we’d need to get into a discussion of the motivational mechanisms of the behaviors you mention, but that is certain to lead to even more controversial questions, which I’d really prefer not to get into.
(Still, you should watch for traits that indicate propensity for troublesome behaviors that can get you into unpleasant situations, or even serious problems, even in the context of such a relationship. What’s indicated by sheer partner count in this regard, independent of the mechanism I described earlier, is another can of worms I’d rather not open.)
and “if he knows how to be attractive enough” is a can-opener assumption in this context.
I am incredibly curious about your thoughts in these matters. You hint lots of things but don’t spell them out. I disagree with your assertions that LW’s gotten worse and is a bad place for these discussions, and I get that you don’t want to post them publicly on LW, but can you PM me? I promise to keep them private if you’d like.
As for the specifics and straight talk, there are plenty of blogs and forums where such things can be discussed ad infinitum.
The ones I’ve seen either a) take weird conservative positions, b) are filled with bitterness and hatred towards women, c) deteriorate into madonna/whore complexes, slut-shaming, and name calling, without much intelligent discussion or reasoning, or d) seem sane to me, but agree with my viewpoint on things.
Besides, I want to know what you think. You’re sane, reasonable, intelligent, and have a viewpoint that’s very different from mine, but seems like it might have a lot to offer. Please PM me. You’re giving me half of thoughts that I haven’t seen anywhere else, and can’t find on fora elsewhere, and I want the other half!
On the other hand, if you’re aiming for a committed relationship, a woman’s high number of previous partners (which in fact doesn’t even have to be extremely high) definitely makes the deck stacked against you. This follows from the basic statistics of the situation,
The obvious question is, what about female partners, or group sex partners with the guy in question? Do they count against the girl?
Rather than counting things for or against the girl how about we frame it in terms of to what extent these new behaviors (female partners and group sex with you) also fit into the previously mentioned correlation cluster.
This is of course a more accurate and useful way of stating the problem in general terms.
The specific question still stands, though. Let’s say it’s true that a guy dating a girl who’s had many past partners will have certain problems, as VM suggests. Do those problems apply to the same extent if, say, half or more were female? Or if they were all during group sex with the guy?
Do those problems apply to the same extent if, say, half or more were female? Or if they were all during group sex with the guy?
I would be rather surprised if this has been studied in the same way that the “sexual partners—divorce rate” correlations have been. That said, the second question seems to be equivalent to “does having group sex cause or correlate to lower expected duration of the pair bond”. An answer of “Yes, but it’s worth it!” seems plausible.
As for correlations between bulk female-female liaisons in the history of the female partner of a heterosexual pair bond and pair bond duration and level of social game required by the male partner—the only direct evidence I have been exposed to is in the form of anecdotal evidence from my own experience and that of reports. My prediction must be based primarily on what I know about human psychology in general—things like conservativeness and the ‘openness’ personality trait. The prediction I would give is “makes less difference than if all those liaisons were with males but still makes a difference in the same direction”.
The obvious question is, what about female partners, or group sex partners with the guy in question? Do they count against the girl?
I’m not seeing why the asymmetry means that the guy will end up in an unfavorable position even if he knows how to be attractive enough. Other than the girl finding the guy unattractive, I’m not sure what else you’re hinting at. Given that I like girls who have had large numbers of partners, is there anything else I need to know or do or be aware of?
Re: looks, are we talking the “blonde = ditzy, glasses = geeky” level of stereotype? Or are you talking about the way someone’s mood, shyness, introversion, and so forth can be read from body language? Or something as straightforward as someone wearing a lot of makeup spent a lot of time on her appearance, and thus probably wants attention/cares what people think of her a lot?
The only “discourse breakdown” I’ve seen is the crowd that thinks any attempt to improve dating skills is fake and evil, and I don’t really care about them. I think we’re past the reflexive “pickup = evil” by now. I’d really like to hear this stuff talked about in plainer and more concrete ways, or at least PM me with a few specifics!
One idea: we’ve had a thread on LW where people post their online dating profiles for feedback. I think it’d be an interesting game to post pictures of people, either ours or other random pictures, and see what kind of guesses we come up with about them based on clues from their appearance.
Why would it be “obvious”? Even completely ignoring these questions still leads to useful insight for the majority of cases in practice.
To answer your question, we’d need to get into a discussion of the motivational mechanisms of the behaviors you mention, but that is certain to lead to even more controversial questions, which I’d really prefer not to get into.
That depends on what exactly you’re aiming for. Saying “I like girls who [have the characteristic X]” sounds as if you like such girls for non-serious, shorter-term relationships in which you have the upper hand. Clearly, you shouldn’t worry too much if it’s really just a throwaway relationship that will soon end one way or another. (Still, you should watch for traits that indicate propensity for troublesome behaviors that can get you into unpleasant situations, or even serious problems, even in the context of such a relationship. What’s indicated by sheer partner count in this regard, independent of the mechanism I described earlier, is another can of worms I’d rather not open.)
On the other hand, if you’re aiming for a committed relationship, a woman’s high number of previous partners (which in fact doesn’t even have to be extremely high) definitely makes the deck stacked against you. This follows from the basic statistics of the situation, and “if he knows how to be attractive enough” is a can-opener assumption in this context.
In fact, the situation has gotten significantly worse on LW in this regard since I started commenting here around two years ago. Back then, it seemed to me like discussions of these topics on LW might result in interesting insight whose worth would be greater than the trouble. However, ever since then, a string of ever worse and more cringe-worthy failures that occurred whenever these topics were opened has convinced me in the opposite.
As for the specifics and straight talk, there are plenty of blogs and forums where such things can be discussed ad infinitum. (Though admittedly these days none are anywhere as good as what could be found during the heyday of the contrarian blogosphere some years ago.) I really don’t see any point in trying to open them in a forum like this one, which has conclusively shown to be a bad place for them.
It was the first thought I had. The association in my mind went something like
girl with lots of partners ---> girl is sexually awesome ---> female partners and group sex ---> if someone thinks having multiple partners is bad, is that bad?
No, I meant long term.
I am incredibly curious about your thoughts in these matters. You hint lots of things but don’t spell them out. I disagree with your assertions that LW’s gotten worse and is a bad place for these discussions, and I get that you don’t want to post them publicly on LW, but can you PM me? I promise to keep them private if you’d like.
The ones I’ve seen either a) take weird conservative positions, b) are filled with bitterness and hatred towards women, c) deteriorate into madonna/whore complexes, slut-shaming, and name calling, without much intelligent discussion or reasoning, or d) seem sane to me, but agree with my viewpoint on things.
Besides, I want to know what you think. You’re sane, reasonable, intelligent, and have a viewpoint that’s very different from mine, but seems like it might have a lot to offer. Please PM me. You’re giving me half of thoughts that I haven’t seen anywhere else, and can’t find on fora elsewhere, and I want the other half!
I don’t see how this stacks the deck.
Rather than counting things for or against the girl how about we frame it in terms of to what extent these new behaviors (female partners and group sex with you) also fit into the previously mentioned correlation cluster.
This is of course a more accurate and useful way of stating the problem in general terms.
The specific question still stands, though. Let’s say it’s true that a guy dating a girl who’s had many past partners will have certain problems, as VM suggests. Do those problems apply to the same extent if, say, half or more were female? Or if they were all during group sex with the guy?
I would be rather surprised if this has been studied in the same way that the “sexual partners—divorce rate” correlations have been. That said, the second question seems to be equivalent to “does having group sex cause or correlate to lower expected duration of the pair bond”. An answer of “Yes, but it’s worth it!” seems plausible.
As for correlations between bulk female-female liaisons in the history of the female partner of a heterosexual pair bond and pair bond duration and level of social game required by the male partner—the only direct evidence I have been exposed to is in the form of anecdotal evidence from my own experience and that of reports. My prediction must be based primarily on what I know about human psychology in general—things like conservativeness and the ‘openness’ personality trait. The prediction I would give is “makes less difference than if all those liaisons were with males but still makes a difference in the same direction”.