I’m curious – what are the “very serious criticisms” you refer to? Your comment would more helpful and productive if you pointed to specific disagreements you have with the post rather than abstractly mentioning the existence of them.
More importantly, what are these criticisms directed at? The stated thesis of this post is that the veil of ignorance is a “useful and mostly accurate description of reality when viewed through certain theories of personal identity.”
This list of notable criticisms of the Veil of Ignorance doesn’t seem to include any disagreement with this claim in particular. In fact, the last criticism mentioned seems to support it – albeit with different reasoning.
Likewise, the first LessWrong post that comes up when searching for “Veil of Ignorance” argues that the thought experiment doesn’t necessarily support Rawl’s ideal society – not that it doesn’t accurately describe reality.
In Anarchy, State, and Utopia (1974), Robert Nozick argues that, while the original position may be the just starting point, any inequalities derived from that distribution by means of free exchange are equally just, and that any re-distributive tax is an infringement on people’s liberty. He also argues that Rawls’s application of the maximin rule to the original position is risk aversion taken to its extreme, and is therefore unsuitable even to those behind the veil of ignorance.[16]
This is criticizing Rawls’s proposed next steps after he saw the map laid out by the veil. I’m just pointing to the map and saying “this is a helpful tool for planning next steps, which will probably be different than steps proposed by Rawls”. I’d point out that this criticism would hold up better if everyone started with equal claim to resources, but that’s an entirely separate conversation.
In Liberalism and the Limits of Justice (1982),[17]Michael Sandel has criticized Rawls’s notion of a veil of ignorance, pointing out that it is impossible, for an individual, to completely prescind from beliefs and convictions (from the Me ultimately), as is required by Rawls’s thought experiment.
Well yeah of course it’s impossible to do it perfectly. It’s impossible for any of us to be ideal-reasoning agents, I guess rationalism is doomed. Sorry guys, pack up and go home.
In a 1987 empirical research study,[18] Frohlich, Oppenheimer, and Eavey showed that, in a simulated original position, undergraduates at American universities agreed upon a distributive principle that maximizes the average with a specified floor constraint (a minimum for the worst-off in any given distribution) over maximizing the floor or the average alone.
Makes sense, “evidence and reason” is critical to planning specific next steps even if you have a high level map.
In How to Make Good Decisions and Be Right All the Time (2008), Iain King argues that people in the original position should not be risk-averse, leading them to adopt the Help Principle (help someone if your help is worth more to them than it is to you) rather than maximin.[19]
Sure. Again, I’m not arguing for specific interpretations of the map, just saying it’s there and it’s helpful even if you don’t come to the same conclusions as others looking at a similar one. The help principle seems reasonable, as do other strategies like giving 10% of your income rather than selling all you have to give to the poor.
Philosopher and Law Professor Harold Anthony Lloyd argues that Rawls’s veil of ignorance is hardly hypothetical but instead dangerously real since individuals cannot know at any point in time the future either for themselves or for others (or in fact know all aspects of either their relevant past or present). Faced with the high stakes of such ignorance, careful egoism effectively becomes altruism by minimizing/sharing risk through social safety nets and other means such as insurance.[20]
I’m curious – what are the “very serious criticisms” you refer to? Your comment would more helpful and productive if you pointed to specific disagreements you have with the post rather than abstractly mentioning the existence of them.
More importantly, what are these criticisms directed at? The stated thesis of this post is that the veil of ignorance is a “useful and mostly accurate description of reality when viewed through certain theories of personal identity.”
This list of notable criticisms of the Veil of Ignorance doesn’t seem to include any disagreement with this claim in particular. In fact, the last criticism mentioned seems to support it – albeit with different reasoning.
Likewise, the first LessWrong post that comes up when searching for “Veil of Ignorance” argues that the thought experiment doesn’t necessarily support Rawl’s ideal society – not that it doesn’t accurately describe reality.
To go through the ones listed in wikipedia:
This is criticizing Rawls’s proposed next steps after he saw the map laid out by the veil. I’m just pointing to the map and saying “this is a helpful tool for planning next steps, which will probably be different than steps proposed by Rawls”. I’d point out that this criticism would hold up better if everyone started with equal claim to resources, but that’s an entirely separate conversation.
Well yeah of course it’s impossible to do it perfectly. It’s impossible for any of us to be ideal-reasoning agents, I guess rationalism is doomed. Sorry guys, pack up and go home.
Makes sense, “evidence and reason” is critical to planning specific next steps even if you have a high level map.
Sure. Again, I’m not arguing for specific interpretations of the map, just saying it’s there and it’s helpful even if you don’t come to the same conclusions as others looking at a similar one. The help principle seems reasonable, as do other strategies like giving 10% of your income rather than selling all you have to give to the poor.
😏😏😏