I agree that it is less bad in Europe and the UK. To quote from a response I gave to a related question:
“I see the education in countries where it is free/mostly free as better than the US, but many of the same criticisms still apply. What is taught, and how it is taught is the same as in the Anglo-saxon World. See here.
Also, the higher education system in those other countries is still quite wasteful (people learning things they don’t need or want to learn, zero-sum competition for credentials...). It’s just that the cost is borne by the taxpayer and not the students themselves. This is probably better than getting young people deep into debt, but still not great.
I think that countries where higher education is free are more ‘locked-in’. So, I’m much more hopeful about significant improvements coming out of the Anglo-saxon world than out of continental Europe, since in Europe any innovative education startup has to compete with a free alternative.”
On the question of AI safety work being done in academia, it is my understanding that many people working in academia have to hide the true intent of their research, or frame it in some way that sounds more in line with more traditional lines of inquiry. This post has some interesting discussions on this topic: Intellectual Progress Inside and Outside Academia.
There’s an old question, “What does the Bible God need to do for the Christians to say he is not good?” What would academia need to do before you let it go?
-Yudkowsky
I agree about the wastefulness of the European model (and that it is better than getting people in debt).
Ultimately, the effect of the system is that it separates the educated class from the non-educated class, which correlates a lot with social class. Because even if the school is for free, you still pay the opportunity cost of the income you could have had instead. You still need someone to feed you. If the university is not in your town, it costs you money for travel and accommodation. And the schools are of various quality, and some of them accept almost literally anyone, so you could probably be literally retarded and still get a university diploma, as long as you choose the right university. So at the end, the difference between people who have the diploma and the people who don’t, is mostly the difference between people whose parents had enough money to feed them until they were 24, and those who didn’t. Except we pretend that it is actually about being smart and diligent, so the poor people who had to start making money as soon as they turned 18 deserve to remain at the bottom, because they are stupid and lazy.
I would prefer to see a system where all education is provided for free to anyone, in the form of high-quality online videos and interactive tests. With separation of teaching and testing: the school would be optional, you could either attend it or learn from home (and then, I wouldn’t mind if the school was paid), but the final exams and diplomas would be given by an independent institution which would verify your knowledge regardless of whether you attended school or were homeschooled. Yeah, one can dream...
I agree that it is less bad in Europe and the UK. To quote from a response I gave to a related question:
“I see the education in countries where it is free/mostly free as better than the US, but many of the same criticisms still apply. What is taught, and how it is taught is the same as in the Anglo-saxon World. See here.
Also, the higher education system in those other countries is still quite wasteful (people learning things they don’t need or want to learn, zero-sum competition for credentials...). It’s just that the cost is borne by the taxpayer and not the students themselves. This is probably better than getting young people deep into debt, but still not great.
I think that countries where higher education is free are more ‘locked-in’. So, I’m much more hopeful about significant improvements coming out of the Anglo-saxon world than out of continental Europe, since in Europe any innovative education startup has to compete with a free alternative.”
On the question of AI safety work being done in academia, it is my understanding that many people working in academia have to hide the true intent of their research, or frame it in some way that sounds more in line with more traditional lines of inquiry. This post has some interesting discussions on this topic: Intellectual Progress Inside and Outside Academia.
I agree about the wastefulness of the European model (and that it is better than getting people in debt).
Ultimately, the effect of the system is that it separates the educated class from the non-educated class, which correlates a lot with social class. Because even if the school is for free, you still pay the opportunity cost of the income you could have had instead. You still need someone to feed you. If the university is not in your town, it costs you money for travel and accommodation. And the schools are of various quality, and some of them accept almost literally anyone, so you could probably be literally retarded and still get a university diploma, as long as you choose the right university. So at the end, the difference between people who have the diploma and the people who don’t, is mostly the difference between people whose parents had enough money to feed them until they were 24, and those who didn’t. Except we pretend that it is actually about being smart and diligent, so the poor people who had to start making money as soon as they turned 18 deserve to remain at the bottom, because they are stupid and lazy.
I would prefer to see a system where all education is provided for free to anyone, in the form of high-quality online videos and interactive tests. With separation of teaching and testing: the school would be optional, you could either attend it or learn from home (and then, I wouldn’t mind if the school was paid), but the final exams and diplomas would be given by an independent institution which would verify your knowledge regardless of whether you attended school or were homeschooled. Yeah, one can dream...