Why do you consider Chris Hallquist to be the same person when he wakes up in the morning as he is when he went to bed the night before (do you?)?
There are two entities; just because you made a copy doesn’t mean that when you destroy the original that the original isn’t changed as a result.
The original is changed. And I agree that there are two entities. But I don’t see why Chris Hallquist should care about that before the split even occurs. Would you undergo the amnesia procedure (if you were convinced the tech worked, that the people were being honest, etc.) for $1000? What’s the difference between that and a 5-minute long dreamless sleep (other than the fact that a dead body has magically appeared outside the room)?
I would consider the Chris that wakes up in the morning the same person because his consciousness was never destroyed. Death destroys consciousness, sleep doesn’t; this seems obvious to me (and I think most people); otherwise we wouldn’t be here discussing this (if this was the case it seems we’d be discussing nightly cryonics to prevent our nightly deaths). Just because most people agree doesn’t make something right, but my intuition tells me that sleep doesn’t kill me (or my consciousness) while death does.
Sorry for caps, how do you italicize in comments?
I think the crux of the issue is that you believe GENERIC “Chris H consciousness” is all that matters, no matter what platform is running it. I agree that another platform (“copy of Chris”) would run it equally well, but I still think that the PARTICULAR person experiencing the consciousness (Chris) would go away, and I don’t like it. It seems like you are treating consciousness as a means—we can run the software on a copy, so it’s exactly the same, where I see it as an end—original Chris should hold on to his particular consciousness. Isn’t this why death is a fundamental problem for people? If people could upload their consciousness to a computer, it may provide some solace but I don’t think it would eliminate completely the sting of death.
With regard to whether I would do it for $1,000--no. Earlier you equated the amnesia procedure with death (I agree). So no, I wouldn’t agree to have a copy of me who happens to be running my consciousness $1,000 for the privilege of committing suicide!
Asterisks around your *italic text* like that. There should be a “Show help” button below the comment field which will pop up a table that explains this stuff.
Isn’t this why death is a fundamental problem for people?
I actually think so. I mean, I used to think of death as this horrible thing, but I realized that I will never experience being dead, so it doesn’t bother me so much anymore. Not being alive bothers me, because I like being alive, but that’s another story. However, I’m dying all the time, in a sense. For example, most of the daily thoughts of 10-year old me are thoughts I will never have again; particularly, because I live somewhere else now, I won’t even have the same patterns being burned into my visual cortex.
I think the crux of the issue is that you believe generic “Chris H consciousness” is all that matters, no matter what platform is running it.
That’s a good way of putting it. The main thing that bothers me about focusing on a “particular” person is that I (in your sense of the word) have no way of knowing whether I’m a copy (in your sense of the word) or not. But I do know that my experiences are real. So I would prefer to say not that there is a copy but that there are two originals. There is, as a matter of fact, a copy in your sense of the word, but I don’t think that attribute should factor into a person’s decision-making (or moral weighting of individuals). The copy has the same thoughts as the original for the same reason the original has his own thoughts! So I don’t see why you consider one as being privileged, because I don’t see location as being that which truly confers consciousness on someone.
I (in your sense of the word) have no way of knowing whether I’m a copy (in your sense of the word) or not. But I do >know that my experiences are real.
I see what you mean about not knowing whether you are a copy. I think this is almost part of the intuition I’m having—you in particular know that your experiences are real, and that you value them. So even if the copy doesn’t know it’s a copy, I feel that the original will still lose out. I don’t think people experience death, as you noted above, but not being alive sucks, and that’s what I think would happen to “original Chris”
By the way, thanks for having this conversation—it made me think about the consequences of my intuitions about this matter more than I have previously—even counting the time I spent as an undergrad writing a paper about the “copy machine dilemma” we’ve been toying with.
Thanks for the italics! Don’t know how I missed the huge show help button for so long.
Why do you consider Chris Hallquist to be the same person when he wakes up in the morning as he is when he went to bed the night before (do you?)?
The original is changed. And I agree that there are two entities. But I don’t see why Chris Hallquist should care about that before the split even occurs. Would you undergo the amnesia procedure (if you were convinced the tech worked, that the people were being honest, etc.) for $1000? What’s the difference between that and a 5-minute long dreamless sleep (other than the fact that a dead body has magically appeared outside the room)?
I would consider the Chris that wakes up in the morning the same person because his consciousness was never destroyed. Death destroys consciousness, sleep doesn’t; this seems obvious to me (and I think most people); otherwise we wouldn’t be here discussing this (if this was the case it seems we’d be discussing nightly cryonics to prevent our nightly deaths). Just because most people agree doesn’t make something right, but my intuition tells me that sleep doesn’t kill me (or my consciousness) while death does.
Sorry for caps, how do you italicize in comments? I think the crux of the issue is that you believe GENERIC “Chris H consciousness” is all that matters, no matter what platform is running it. I agree that another platform (“copy of Chris”) would run it equally well, but I still think that the PARTICULAR person experiencing the consciousness (Chris) would go away, and I don’t like it. It seems like you are treating consciousness as a means—we can run the software on a copy, so it’s exactly the same, where I see it as an end—original Chris should hold on to his particular consciousness. Isn’t this why death is a fundamental problem for people? If people could upload their consciousness to a computer, it may provide some solace but I don’t think it would eliminate completely the sting of death.
With regard to whether I would do it for $1,000--no. Earlier you equated the amnesia procedure with death (I agree). So no, I wouldn’t agree to have a copy of me who happens to be running my consciousness $1,000 for the privilege of committing suicide!
Asterisks around your *italic text* like that. There should be a “Show help” button below the comment field which will pop up a table that explains this stuff.
I actually think so. I mean, I used to think of death as this horrible thing, but I realized that I will never experience being dead, so it doesn’t bother me so much anymore. Not being alive bothers me, because I like being alive, but that’s another story. However, I’m dying all the time, in a sense. For example, most of the daily thoughts of 10-year old me are thoughts I will never have again; particularly, because I live somewhere else now, I won’t even have the same patterns being burned into my visual cortex.
That’s a good way of putting it. The main thing that bothers me about focusing on a “particular” person is that I (in your sense of the word) have no way of knowing whether I’m a copy (in your sense of the word) or not. But I do know that my experiences are real. So I would prefer to say not that there is a copy but that there are two originals. There is, as a matter of fact, a copy in your sense of the word, but I don’t think that attribute should factor into a person’s decision-making (or moral weighting of individuals). The copy has the same thoughts as the original for the same reason the original has his own thoughts! So I don’t see why you consider one as being privileged, because I don’t see location as being that which truly confers consciousness on someone.
I see what you mean about not knowing whether you are a copy. I think this is almost part of the intuition I’m having—you in particular know that your experiences are real, and that you value them. So even if the copy doesn’t know it’s a copy, I feel that the original will still lose out. I don’t think people experience death, as you noted above, but not being alive sucks, and that’s what I think would happen to “original Chris”
By the way, thanks for having this conversation—it made me think about the consequences of my intuitions about this matter more than I have previously—even counting the time I spent as an undergrad writing a paper about the “copy machine dilemma” we’ve been toying with.
Thanks for the italics! Don’t know how I missed the huge show help button for so long.