I’m glad my comment helped clarify your ideas for you. I can’t say that I entirely understand your point, though.
It would be more accurate to my idea to say that some times you have to know when to stop playing.
Stop playing what game? Say you’re with a group of friends, and you’re all playing a game together, like Monopoly or something. You’re also playing the “game” of social relations, where people have roles like “the smart one”, “the cool one” or “the helpful one” that they want to fulfill. Do you mean that sometimes you have to know when to stop playing to win at Monopoly in order to smooth over the social relations game and prevent people from getting frustrated and angry with you? Or do you mean that sometimes you have to stop playing the social status/relations game? The former is, I think, fairly obvious. Some people get too caught up in games like Monopoly and assign more value to “winning” than to letting everyone else have fun, but that’s more a failure of social skills than “rationality”.
As for the latter, I’m not sure I understand what “deciding to stop playing” at social relations would mean. That you would stop trying to make yourself look good? That you would stop talking to the other people with you? More to the point, I don’t think social relations is a game where one person wins over everyone else. If I got to look cool, but it meant that some of my friends didn’t have fun and felt neglected, I certainly wouldn’t feel like I’d won the game of social harmony.
However, because of the phenomenon I have attempted to explain above (people’s need to fulfill certain ideal roles) taking the steps necessary to “win” is damaging to the other players, because it forces them to acknowledge their subordination, and thus in reality does not achieve the desired goal. Does this make sense?
This paragraph makes it sound like you’re talking about social status. Yes, social status is somewhat of a zero-sum game, in that you being cooler and getting tons of attentions makes everyone else a bit less cool by comparison and takes away from the attention they get. But that’s in no way the goal of social harmony, at least not as I define it. In a harmonious group, no one feels neglected, and everyone enjoys themselves.
In summary, I think you may just be describing a problem that doesn’t really happen to me (although, thinking back, it happened to me more back when I was 12 and didn’t have good social skills.) Given that intelligence and “nerdiness” is associated with poor social skills, and LW is considered a nerdy community, I can see why it wouldn’t be an unreasonable assumption to think that others in the community have this problem, and are liked less by other people because they try too hard to be right. But that’s most likely because they don’t think of “getting along with others” or “improving their social skills” as specific goals in their own right. Anyone who does form those goals, and apply the toolkit of LW-rationality to them, would probably realize on their own that trying to be right all the time, and “winning” in that sense, would mean losing at a different and perhaps more important game.
Sorry for such a late response, life really picked up this month in many amazing and wondrous ways and I found myself lacking the time or desire to respond. Now things have lulled back, and I would like to address your, and all the other responses to my ideas.
Stop playing what game? …As for the latter, I’m not sure I understand what “deciding to stop playing” at social relations would mean.
When I say game I am referring to a board game, a social game, a dream, really any desired outcome. Social status is a type of game, and it was the one I thought provided the most powerful analogy, but it is not the overall point. The overall point is the social harmony you speak of. You say that in your opinion,
In a harmonious group, no one feels neglected, and everyone enjoys themselves...
I agree with this definition of harmony. The idea I am trying to express goes beyond the poor social skills you are assuming I am attributing to this “nerdy community” (which I am not). Beyond individually motivated goals, I am suggesting that for no one to feel neglected and everyone to enjoy themselves it is necessary for the actor to stop trying to achieve any goal.
The pursuit of any one goal-orientation automatically excludes all other potential goal-orientations. If you have an idea of what is funny, what is cool, in attempting to actualize these ideas you are excluding all other possible interpretations of them.
For no one to feel neglected and everyone to truly enjoy themselves, then everyone’s ideas of happiness, security, camaraderie, humor, etc must be met. My idea is somewhat similar to Hinesburg’s uncertainty principle, in that your intentionally makes the goal you desire unattainable. Does this make sense?
for no one to feel neglected and everyone to enjoy themselves it is necessary for the actor to stop trying to achieve any goal.
Do you mean that the person in question has to just sit back and relax? That they have to stop trying to steer the direction of the conversation and just let it flow? Or that they have to focus on other people’s enjoyment rather than their own enjoyment? The former doesn’t feel true for me, in that having someone with good social skills and an idea of people’s interests steer the conversation can make it more enjoyable rather than less so. The latter, maybe true, but I wouldn’t want to live like that.
I’m glad my comment helped clarify your ideas for you. I can’t say that I entirely understand your point, though.
Stop playing what game? Say you’re with a group of friends, and you’re all playing a game together, like Monopoly or something. You’re also playing the “game” of social relations, where people have roles like “the smart one”, “the cool one” or “the helpful one” that they want to fulfill. Do you mean that sometimes you have to know when to stop playing to win at Monopoly in order to smooth over the social relations game and prevent people from getting frustrated and angry with you? Or do you mean that sometimes you have to stop playing the social status/relations game? The former is, I think, fairly obvious. Some people get too caught up in games like Monopoly and assign more value to “winning” than to letting everyone else have fun, but that’s more a failure of social skills than “rationality”.
As for the latter, I’m not sure I understand what “deciding to stop playing” at social relations would mean. That you would stop trying to make yourself look good? That you would stop talking to the other people with you? More to the point, I don’t think social relations is a game where one person wins over everyone else. If I got to look cool, but it meant that some of my friends didn’t have fun and felt neglected, I certainly wouldn’t feel like I’d won the game of social harmony.
This paragraph makes it sound like you’re talking about social status. Yes, social status is somewhat of a zero-sum game, in that you being cooler and getting tons of attentions makes everyone else a bit less cool by comparison and takes away from the attention they get. But that’s in no way the goal of social harmony, at least not as I define it. In a harmonious group, no one feels neglected, and everyone enjoys themselves.
In summary, I think you may just be describing a problem that doesn’t really happen to me (although, thinking back, it happened to me more back when I was 12 and didn’t have good social skills.) Given that intelligence and “nerdiness” is associated with poor social skills, and LW is considered a nerdy community, I can see why it wouldn’t be an unreasonable assumption to think that others in the community have this problem, and are liked less by other people because they try too hard to be right. But that’s most likely because they don’t think of “getting along with others” or “improving their social skills” as specific goals in their own right. Anyone who does form those goals, and apply the toolkit of LW-rationality to them, would probably realize on their own that trying to be right all the time, and “winning” in that sense, would mean losing at a different and perhaps more important game.
Sorry for such a late response, life really picked up this month in many amazing and wondrous ways and I found myself lacking the time or desire to respond. Now things have lulled back, and I would like to address your, and all the other responses to my ideas.
When I say game I am referring to a board game, a social game, a dream, really any desired outcome. Social status is a type of game, and it was the one I thought provided the most powerful analogy, but it is not the overall point. The overall point is the social harmony you speak of. You say that in your opinion,
I agree with this definition of harmony. The idea I am trying to express goes beyond the poor social skills you are assuming I am attributing to this “nerdy community” (which I am not). Beyond individually motivated goals, I am suggesting that for no one to feel neglected and everyone to enjoy themselves it is necessary for the actor to stop trying to achieve any goal. The pursuit of any one goal-orientation automatically excludes all other potential goal-orientations. If you have an idea of what is funny, what is cool, in attempting to actualize these ideas you are excluding all other possible interpretations of them. For no one to feel neglected and everyone to truly enjoy themselves, then everyone’s ideas of happiness, security, camaraderie, humor, etc must be met. My idea is somewhat similar to Hinesburg’s uncertainty principle, in that your intentionally makes the goal you desire unattainable. Does this make sense?
Do you mean that the person in question has to just sit back and relax? That they have to stop trying to steer the direction of the conversation and just let it flow? Or that they have to focus on other people’s enjoyment rather than their own enjoyment? The former doesn’t feel true for me, in that having someone with good social skills and an idea of people’s interests steer the conversation can make it more enjoyable rather than less so. The latter, maybe true, but I wouldn’t want to live like that.