To me “generally avoid processed foods” would be kinda like saying “generally avoid breathing in gasses/particulates that are different from typical earth atmosphere near sea level”.
People have been breathing a lot of smoke in the last million years or so, so one might think that we would have evolved to tolerate it, but it’s still really bad for us. Though there are certainly lots of ways to go wrong deviating from what we are adapted to, our current unnatural environment is far better for our life expectancy than the natural one. As pointed out in other comments, some food processing can be better for us.
There’s some simple processes that make it easier/possible to digest whole foods that would otherwise be difficult/impossible to healthily digest, but I don’t really think there’s meaningful confusion as to whether that’s being referred to by the term processed foods.
Could you offer some examples of healthy foods /better for us foods that are processed such that there would be meaningful confusion surrounding the idea of it being healthy to avoid processed foods, according to how that term is typically used?
I can think of some, but definitely not anything of enough consequence to help me to understand why people here seem so critical of the concept of reducing processed foods as a health guideline.
Sure. One such example would be traditional bread. It is made from grain that is ground, mechanically separated, biotechnologically treated with a highly modified yeast, mechanically treated again and thermally treated. So it is one of the most processed foods we have, but is typically not included as “ultra-processed”. Or take traditional soy sauce or cheese or beer or cured meats (that are probably actually quite bad) or tofu...
So as a natural category “ultra processed” is mostly hogwash. Either you stick with raw foods from the environment we adapted to, which will allow you to feed a couple million people at best or you need to explain WHICH processing is bad and preferably why. All non traditional processing is of course a heuristic you can use, but it certainly not satisfactory as a theory/explanation.
Also some traditional processes are probably pretty unhealthy. Like cured meats, alcoholic fermentation, high heat singeing and smoking depending on the exact process come to mind
I would consider most bread sold in stores to be processed or ultra processed and I think that’s a pretty standard view but it’s true there might be some confusion.
Or take traditional soy sauce or cheese or beer or cured meats
I would consider all of those to be processed and unhealthy and I think thats a pretty standard view, but fair enough if there’s some confusion around those things.
So as a natural category “ultra processed” is mostly hogwash.
I guess my view is that it’s mostly not hogwash?
The least healthy things are clearly and broadly much more processed than the healthiest things.
I don’t have a strong opinion because I think there’s huge uncertainty in what is healthy. But for instance, my intuition is that a plant-based meat that had very similar nutritional characteristics as animal meat would be about as healthy (or unhealthy) as the meat itself. The plant-based meat would be ultra-processed. But one could think of the animal meat as being ultra-processed plants, so I guess one could think that that is the reason that animal meat is unhealthy?
People have been breathing a lot of smoke in the last million years or so, so one might think that we would have evolved to tolerate it, but it’s still really bad for us. Though there are certainly lots of ways to go wrong deviating from what we are adapted to, our current unnatural environment is far better for our life expectancy than the natural one. As pointed out in other comments, some food processing can be better for us.
There’s some simple processes that make it easier/possible to digest whole foods that would otherwise be difficult/impossible to healthily digest, but I don’t really think there’s meaningful confusion as to whether that’s being referred to by the term processed foods.
Could you offer some examples of healthy foods /better for us foods that are processed such that there would be meaningful confusion surrounding the idea of it being healthy to avoid processed foods, according to how that term is typically used?
I can think of some, but definitely not anything of enough consequence to help me to understand why people here seem so critical of the concept of reducing processed foods as a health guideline.
Sure. One such example would be traditional bread. It is made from grain that is ground, mechanically separated, biotechnologically treated with a highly modified yeast, mechanically treated again and thermally treated. So it is one of the most processed foods we have, but is typically not included as “ultra-processed”. Or take traditional soy sauce or cheese or beer or cured meats (that are probably actually quite bad) or tofu...
So as a natural category “ultra processed” is mostly hogwash. Either you stick with raw foods from the environment we adapted to, which will allow you to feed a couple million people at best or you need to explain WHICH processing is bad and preferably why. All non traditional processing is of course a heuristic you can use, but it certainly not satisfactory as a theory/explanation.
Also some traditional processes are probably pretty unhealthy. Like cured meats, alcoholic fermentation, high heat singeing and smoking depending on the exact process come to mind
I would consider most bread sold in stores to be processed or ultra processed and I think that’s a pretty standard view but it’s true there might be some confusion.
I would consider all of those to be processed and unhealthy and I think thats a pretty standard view, but fair enough if there’s some confusion around those things.
I guess my view is that it’s mostly not hogwash?
The least healthy things are clearly and broadly much more processed than the healthiest things.
I don’t have a strong opinion because I think there’s huge uncertainty in what is healthy. But for instance, my intuition is that a plant-based meat that had very similar nutritional characteristics as animal meat would be about as healthy (or unhealthy) as the meat itself. The plant-based meat would be ultra-processed. But one could think of the animal meat as being ultra-processed plants, so I guess one could think that that is the reason that animal meat is unhealthy?