What Chesterton was actually talking about was a reaction against liberal Protestantism in favour of more traditional Catholicism (represented e.g. by the “Oxford Movement” in the Church of England), against a prevailing tide in the direction of greater liberalism within Christianity and greater skepticism about Christianity.
So: not literally neoreaction, obviously, but something with a thing or two in common with neoreaction.
If RichardKennaway’s meaning is “ha ha, Azathoth123 is using this as support for a neoreactionary view, when in fact Chesterton had something entirely different in mind” then I don’t think that’s altogether fair.
(I have no idea whether the people who have downvoted Richard did so because they thought he was saying that and that Chesterton really was talking about (something like) neoreaction, or because they thought he was actually claiming that Chesterton was talking about neoreaction when really he wasn’t. This is one of the problems with downvoting as opposed to disagreeing. On the other hand, perhaps they downvoted because RK’s comment could be taken either way with roughly equal plausibility and was therefore needlessly unclear.)
If RichardKennaway’s meaning is “ha ha, Azathoth123 is using this as support for a neoreactionary view, when in fact Chesterton had something entirely different in mind” then I don’t think that’s altogether fair.
Something along those lines. What makes Azathoth123′s recent Chesterton quotes rationality quotes? Chesterton wrote:
A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.
and of course neoreaction is something that is going against a stream, and in its eyes progressivism is, well, I’m not sure how the metaphor works out from here, because what neoreaction is going against is progressivism, which makes progressivism the stream itself, rather than a dead thing floating down some other stream. But anyway, why should we take Chesterton’s quote as real wisdom? As a literal statement about the physics of floating bodies, it is true but uninteresting. As a metaphor, he is applying it to Christianity, or to his preferred form of it, everything else being either the stream or the flotsam (the metaphor has the same problem here).
So just what truth is being asserted here, that for Chesterton supports Catholicism and for Azathoth123 supports neoreaction? Contrarianism, the view that the majority is always wrong? That is all the metaphor amounts to. This sits oddly with the contention, also made by neoreactionaries, that their preferred view of society is actually the great stream within which progressivism is a historical anomaly, a trifling eddy that will not last (e.g. Anissimov and advancedatheist in recent comments on LW). I’m sure that if that metaphor had suited Chesterton in making some point, he would have elaborated it at no less length. But a metaphor proves nothing: it is a method of presentation, not of argument.
So now that you’ve made your argument more explicit, I largely agree, but let me defend Chesterton (and maybe to some extent Azathoth123) just a little. Specifically, I’ll argue (1) that his metaphor is a bit more coherent than you give it credit for, (2) that he isn’t claiming anything as silly as that the majority is always wrong, and (3) that if he’s understood right then what he says isn’t as hard to reconcile with the neoreactionaries’ claims as you suggest. But I agree (4) that he isn’t making any very interesting factual statement, (5) that it doesn’t offer all that much support for neoreaction, and (6) that he’s engaging in rhetoric rather than anything much like reasoned argument.
Chesterton’s argument, so far as there is one, seems to go like this. “Everyone thought traditional Christianity was dying or dead, washed away by a great stream of enlightenment and skepticism and liberalism. Some of its parts might stay in place for a while before eventually being eroded away, but the ultimate outcome seemed in little doubt. But now we see something—let’s call it neocatholicism—not merely hanging on as the tide rushes past but actually heading in the opposite direction, getting more traditional over time rather than less. This shows that neocatholicism, and by extension traditional Christianity generally, is still alive and kicking. Let us put this in the context of these other times I’ve described, when Christianity appeared to be dead or dying but then regained ascendancy; this is just another example of the same phenomenon, even though we haven’t yet quite reached the bit where the Church triumphs again.”
So Chesterton is saying that his Great Thingy is enduring where what presently looks like a great all-consuming stream is in fact ephemeral; give it another century or so, he says, and the Church will still be there stronger than ever while the stream of skeptical enlightenment dwindles and is eventually forgotten. So I don’t see the difference you do with the neoreactionaries’ view of their model of society.
I don’t think the claim here is that the majority is always wrong. Nor that “only a living thing can go against the stream” proved Christianity right or proves neoreaction right. I think it’s intended to be something less ambitious: the emergence in Chesterton’s time of a Catholic reaction showed (according to Chesterton) that Catholic Christianity was a still-somewhat-vigorous living thing and shouldn’t be written off, and the emergence of neoreaction in our time shows (according to Azathoth123, if I’m interpreting him right) that a reactionary view of society is a still-somewhat-vigorous living thing and shouldn’t be written off.
(So the actual alleged truth being asserted would be something like this: “Something that goes against the current of popular opinion, not merely holding on but pushing in the opposite direction, must have some vigour to it, and it may turn out to win in the end.” Which, like the literal statement about floating bodies, is probably true but not very interesting.)
To support his stronger thesis that traditional Catholic Christianity is (not merely not quite dead yet, but) everlasting and always ultimately triumphant, Chesterton appeals to a bigger historical context in which (so he says) it has repeatedly seemed dead but returned greater and more terrible than ever before. I’m not sure whether the neoreactionaries make a similar claim.
There’s still very little here in the way of actual argument, but that’s how Chesterton rolls. Some clever and counterintuitive ideas, a paradoxical way of presenting them, lots of rhetorical fireworks and ingenious metaphors, and his work is done. If you get as far as thinking carefully about whether what he says is actually correct then his verbal pyrotechnics obviously weren’t impressive enough.
Well progressivism self-identifies as “being on the right side of history”.
Indeed it does. It sees itself as the stream and the tide, not dead flotsam. At least, when it is not casting its enemies as the stream and itself as the living thing valiantly fighting against oppression. Chesterton, progressivism, and neoreaction all have that equivocation in common, casting their favoured ideology as either the tide or as fighting against the tide, as it suits their rhetoric.
Chesterton was talking about Neoreaction, right?
ETA: A note of clarification for those in need of it: I am not actually claiming that Chesterton was talking about Neoreaction.
What Chesterton was actually talking about was a reaction against liberal Protestantism in favour of more traditional Catholicism (represented e.g. by the “Oxford Movement” in the Church of England), against a prevailing tide in the direction of greater liberalism within Christianity and greater skepticism about Christianity.
So: not literally neoreaction, obviously, but something with a thing or two in common with neoreaction.
If RichardKennaway’s meaning is “ha ha, Azathoth123 is using this as support for a neoreactionary view, when in fact Chesterton had something entirely different in mind” then I don’t think that’s altogether fair.
(I have no idea whether the people who have downvoted Richard did so because they thought he was saying that and that Chesterton really was talking about (something like) neoreaction, or because they thought he was actually claiming that Chesterton was talking about neoreaction when really he wasn’t. This is one of the problems with downvoting as opposed to disagreeing. On the other hand, perhaps they downvoted because RK’s comment could be taken either way with roughly equal plausibility and was therefore needlessly unclear.)
Something along those lines. What makes Azathoth123′s recent Chesterton quotes rationality quotes? Chesterton wrote:
and of course neoreaction is something that is going against a stream, and in its eyes progressivism is, well, I’m not sure how the metaphor works out from here, because what neoreaction is going against is progressivism, which makes progressivism the stream itself, rather than a dead thing floating down some other stream. But anyway, why should we take Chesterton’s quote as real wisdom? As a literal statement about the physics of floating bodies, it is true but uninteresting. As a metaphor, he is applying it to Christianity, or to his preferred form of it, everything else being either the stream or the flotsam (the metaphor has the same problem here).
So just what truth is being asserted here, that for Chesterton supports Catholicism and for Azathoth123 supports neoreaction? Contrarianism, the view that the majority is always wrong? That is all the metaphor amounts to. This sits oddly with the contention, also made by neoreactionaries, that their preferred view of society is actually the great stream within which progressivism is a historical anomaly, a trifling eddy that will not last (e.g. Anissimov and advancedatheist in recent comments on LW). I’m sure that if that metaphor had suited Chesterton in making some point, he would have elaborated it at no less length. But a metaphor proves nothing: it is a method of presentation, not of argument.
So now that you’ve made your argument more explicit, I largely agree, but let me defend Chesterton (and maybe to some extent Azathoth123) just a little. Specifically, I’ll argue (1) that his metaphor is a bit more coherent than you give it credit for, (2) that he isn’t claiming anything as silly as that the majority is always wrong, and (3) that if he’s understood right then what he says isn’t as hard to reconcile with the neoreactionaries’ claims as you suggest. But I agree (4) that he isn’t making any very interesting factual statement, (5) that it doesn’t offer all that much support for neoreaction, and (6) that he’s engaging in rhetoric rather than anything much like reasoned argument.
Chesterton’s argument, so far as there is one, seems to go like this. “Everyone thought traditional Christianity was dying or dead, washed away by a great stream of enlightenment and skepticism and liberalism. Some of its parts might stay in place for a while before eventually being eroded away, but the ultimate outcome seemed in little doubt. But now we see something—let’s call it neocatholicism—not merely hanging on as the tide rushes past but actually heading in the opposite direction, getting more traditional over time rather than less. This shows that neocatholicism, and by extension traditional Christianity generally, is still alive and kicking. Let us put this in the context of these other times I’ve described, when Christianity appeared to be dead or dying but then regained ascendancy; this is just another example of the same phenomenon, even though we haven’t yet quite reached the bit where the Church triumphs again.”
So Chesterton is saying that his Great Thingy is enduring where what presently looks like a great all-consuming stream is in fact ephemeral; give it another century or so, he says, and the Church will still be there stronger than ever while the stream of skeptical enlightenment dwindles and is eventually forgotten. So I don’t see the difference you do with the neoreactionaries’ view of their model of society.
I don’t think the claim here is that the majority is always wrong. Nor that “only a living thing can go against the stream” proved Christianity right or proves neoreaction right. I think it’s intended to be something less ambitious: the emergence in Chesterton’s time of a Catholic reaction showed (according to Chesterton) that Catholic Christianity was a still-somewhat-vigorous living thing and shouldn’t be written off, and the emergence of neoreaction in our time shows (according to Azathoth123, if I’m interpreting him right) that a reactionary view of society is a still-somewhat-vigorous living thing and shouldn’t be written off.
(So the actual alleged truth being asserted would be something like this: “Something that goes against the current of popular opinion, not merely holding on but pushing in the opposite direction, must have some vigour to it, and it may turn out to win in the end.” Which, like the literal statement about floating bodies, is probably true but not very interesting.)
To support his stronger thesis that traditional Catholic Christianity is (not merely not quite dead yet, but) everlasting and always ultimately triumphant, Chesterton appeals to a bigger historical context in which (so he says) it has repeatedly seemed dead but returned greater and more terrible than ever before. I’m not sure whether the neoreactionaries make a similar claim.
There’s still very little here in the way of actual argument, but that’s how Chesterton rolls. Some clever and counterintuitive ideas, a paradoxical way of presenting them, lots of rhetorical fireworks and ingenious metaphors, and his work is done. If you get as far as thinking carefully about whether what he says is actually correct then his verbal pyrotechnics obviously weren’t impressive enough.
Well progressivism self-identifies as “being on the right side of history”.
Indeed it does. It sees itself as the stream and the tide, not dead flotsam. At least, when it is not casting its enemies as the stream and itself as the living thing valiantly fighting against oppression. Chesterton, progressivism, and neoreaction all have that equivocation in common, casting their favoured ideology as either the tide or as fighting against the tide, as it suits their rhetoric.