One last thing: I misunderstood the point you were making when you were talking about blackholes. The point you were making was ‘”What maximizes entropy” is a bad morality’; what I thought I was reading was ‘dissipative adaptation does not work because it predicts that we will into a black hole and Earth developed complex life because the complex life did some nuclear fission after it was developed’.
My point was a bit more complex. Yes, there’s absolutely the morality argument—obviously something that prescribes “thou shalt make black holes” is a dumb morality and I will not follow it. But there’s also a predictive power argument. At a planetary scale, putting aside all the complexity issues you rightly bring up, it may be possible that life truly maximises entropy production given certain constraints. The Earth would have more entropy as a black hole, but the potential barrier to reaching that state is enormous, and so we’re stuck in the local maximum of a planet teeming with life instead. But Beff and e-acc carry the argument all the way to the universal scale, and that’s where it breaks down, because at the universal scale, black holes absolutely do dominate entropy production, and everything else is a rounding error, so life becomes inconsequential for the ledger.
To make a practical example: suppose future humanity becomes a Kardashev 3 civilization, using up all the energy output of the Milky way and dissipating it at cosmic background temperature via radiation. That makes for an entropy production of approximately 3⋅1035W/K. Now suppose that this powerful civilization at some point predicts that two stellar black holes, each of 3 solar masses, will at some point in the future merge near an inhabited system, and this will cause trouble. With their immense power, this civilization finds a way to change the trajectory of one of those black holes, avoiding the merger, and save the system. Well, with that single change this civilization has averted the creation of roughly 3⋅1054J/K of entropy, that is, over 3 trillion years’ worth of their current entropy production! The civilization that does this will forever be a net negative in entropy creation for its whole existence, regardless of how much it splurges on using energy otherwise.
So, entropy production itself does not predict life at universal scales. It can’t. Life is just a tiny rounding error several digits down on that balance sheet. And even if on some local scales it may be possible that life is an avenue to maximizing entropy, overall those goals don’t stay aligned all the way to life taking over the universe.
the only point I disagree on is that I think that a tree is in fact a more efficient dissipator than no tree
I think that genuinely depends on details like the precise colour of the soil and efficiency of the plant. We know photosynthesis is not very efficient at energy conversion (IIRC the top efficiency belongs to the sugar cane and is a meager 8%). Also, you could probably make a more dissipative surface by putting up a very dark, very efficient solar panel and then using it to power a heater. I suppose there’s an argument that solar panels are created by life but that seems like a very tortuous way for thermodynamics to work.
My point was a bit more complex. Yes, there’s absolutely the morality argument—obviously something that prescribes “thou shalt make black holes” is a dumb morality and I will not follow it. But there’s also a predictive power argument. At a planetary scale, putting aside all the complexity issues you rightly bring up, it may be possible that life truly maximises entropy production given certain constraints. The Earth would have more entropy as a black hole, but the potential barrier to reaching that state is enormous, and so we’re stuck in the local maximum of a planet teeming with life instead. But Beff and e-acc carry the argument all the way to the universal scale, and that’s where it breaks down, because at the universal scale, black holes absolutely do dominate entropy production, and everything else is a rounding error, so life becomes inconsequential for the ledger.
To make a practical example: suppose future humanity becomes a Kardashev 3 civilization, using up all the energy output of the Milky way and dissipating it at cosmic background temperature via radiation. That makes for an entropy production of approximately 3⋅1035W/K. Now suppose that this powerful civilization at some point predicts that two stellar black holes, each of 3 solar masses, will at some point in the future merge near an inhabited system, and this will cause trouble. With their immense power, this civilization finds a way to change the trajectory of one of those black holes, avoiding the merger, and save the system. Well, with that single change this civilization has averted the creation of roughly 3⋅1054J/K of entropy, that is, over 3 trillion years’ worth of their current entropy production! The civilization that does this will forever be a net negative in entropy creation for its whole existence, regardless of how much it splurges on using energy otherwise.
So, entropy production itself does not predict life at universal scales. It can’t. Life is just a tiny rounding error several digits down on that balance sheet. And even if on some local scales it may be possible that life is an avenue to maximizing entropy, overall those goals don’t stay aligned all the way to life taking over the universe.
I think that genuinely depends on details like the precise colour of the soil and efficiency of the plant. We know photosynthesis is not very efficient at energy conversion (IIRC the top efficiency belongs to the sugar cane and is a meager 8%). Also, you could probably make a more dissipative surface by putting up a very dark, very efficient solar panel and then using it to power a heater. I suppose there’s an argument that solar panels are created by life but that seems like a very tortuous way for thermodynamics to work.