so, I’m in the same time happy there is an answer, but can’t be happy with the answer itself. which is to say, i tried to go and find the pints i agree with, and find one after another point of disagreement. but i also believe this post deserve more serious answer, so i will try to write at least part of my objections.
i do believe that x-risk and societies destroying themselves as thy become more clever then wise is a real problem. but i disagree with the framing that the ants are the ones to blame. it’s running from the problem. if grasshoppers are to grow, even if slower, they too may bring atomic winter.
and you just… assume it away. in the way of worst Utopian writing, where societies have features that present-people hate and find bad but somehow everyone happy and no one have any problems with that and everything is okay. it’s just… feel cheap to me.
and if you assume no growth at all, then… what about all the people that value growth? there are a lot of us in the world. if it’s actually “steady-state existence”, not sustainable growth but everything stay the same way… it’s really really really bad by my utility function, and the one good thing i can say about that, is that state doesn’t look stable to me. there were always innovators and progressors. you can’t have your stable society without some Dystopian repression of those.
but you can have dath ilan. this was my main problem with the original parable. it was very black-and-white. dath ilan didn’t come to the ants and ask for food, instead it offered it. but it definitely not table state. and to my intuition, it’s look both possible and desirable.
and it also doesn’t assume that the ants throw away decision theory from the window. the original parables explicitly mentioned it. i find representation of ants that forego cooperation in prisoner dilemma strawmanish.
but beside all that, there is another, meta-point. there was prediction after prediction for pick-oil and the results, and they all proved wrong. so are other predictions for that strand of socialism. from my point of view, the algorithm that generating this predictions is untrustworthy. i don’t think Less Wrong is the right place for all those discussions.
and i don’t plan to write my own, dath-ilani replay to the parables.
but i don’t think some perspectives are missing. i think they was judged false and ignored afterwards. and the way in which the original parables felt fair to the ants, and those don’t, is evidence this is good rule to follow.
it’s not bubble, it’s the trust in the ability for fair discussion, or the absent of trust. because discussion in which my opinions assumed to be result of bubble and not honest disagreement… i don’t have words to describe the sense of ugliness, wrongness, that this create. it the same that came from feeling the original post as honest and fair, and this as underhanded and strawmanish.
(all written here is not very certain and not precise representation of my opinions, but i already took way too much time to write it, and i think it better to write it then not)
so, I’m in the same time happy there is an answer, but can’t be happy with the answer itself. which is to say, i tried to go and find the pints i agree with, and find one after another point of disagreement. but i also believe this post deserve more serious answer, so i will try to write at least part of my objections.
i do believe that x-risk and societies destroying themselves as thy become more clever then wise is a real problem. but i disagree with the framing that the ants are the ones to blame. it’s running from the problem. if grasshoppers are to grow, even if slower, they too may bring atomic winter.
and you just… assume it away. in the way of worst Utopian writing, where societies have features that present-people hate and find bad but somehow everyone happy and no one have any problems with that and everything is okay. it’s just… feel cheap to me.
and if you assume no growth at all, then… what about all the people that value growth? there are a lot of us in the world. if it’s actually “steady-state existence”, not sustainable growth but everything stay the same way… it’s really really really bad by my utility function, and the one good thing i can say about that, is that state doesn’t look stable to me. there were always innovators and progressors. you can’t have your stable society without some Dystopian repression of those.
but you can have dath ilan. this was my main problem with the original parable. it was very black-and-white. dath ilan didn’t come to the ants and ask for food, instead it offered it. but it definitely not table state. and to my intuition, it’s look both possible and desirable.
and it also doesn’t assume that the ants throw away decision theory from the window. the original parables explicitly mentioned it. i find representation of ants that forego cooperation in prisoner dilemma strawmanish.
but beside all that, there is another, meta-point. there was prediction after prediction for pick-oil and the results, and they all proved wrong. so are other predictions for that strand of socialism. from my point of view, the algorithm that generating this predictions is untrustworthy. i don’t think Less Wrong is the right place for all those discussions.
and i don’t plan to write my own, dath-ilani replay to the parables.
but i don’t think some perspectives are missing. i think they was judged false and ignored afterwards. and the way in which the original parables felt fair to the ants, and those don’t, is evidence this is good rule to follow.
it’s not bubble, it’s the trust in the ability for fair discussion, or the absent of trust. because discussion in which my opinions assumed to be result of bubble and not honest disagreement… i don’t have words to describe the sense of ugliness, wrongness, that this create. it the same that came from feeling the original post as honest and fair, and this as underhanded and strawmanish.
(all written here is not very certain and not precise representation of my opinions, but i already took way too much time to write it, and i think it better to write it then not)