To provide yet another different male perspective:
Some part of the success caused by “game” can no doubt be explained as a rationally justifiable taking-into-account of genuinely increased excitingness/attractiveness, but some other part of the extra success is no doubt better explained as a direct influence on the decision mechanism, not on the thing that it makes decisions about. “Game” that’s mostly about the former strikes me as being a good thing for the reasons divia mentions; “game” that’s mostly about the latter strikes me as being manipulative.
The part that I haven’t seen emphasized is that in some cases PUA success shows there are security flaws in female decision-making about mating, and just like it’s bad to exploit security flaws, it’s bad not to patch them up. When evidence shows my decisions (or the decisions of members of a group I belong to) are not in line with the values I hold on a conscious level, I worry about how I can defend psychologically against the distortions.
Lest I be seen as taking easy potshots across the gender fence, I think the same is true for men and female appearance: being with a better-looking woman will make a man happier, but the degree to which men pursue good-looking women is probably even greater than can be explained by rational projections of their self-interest, and certainly greater than is pro-social. Men should strive from a selfish point of view to be more immune to this sort of short-circuiting, and from a pro-social point of view to de-correlate their tastes from those of other men and to be less attracted to behaviors that, like “game”, are a pain in the ass unto the behaver. To the degree that that’s even possible, of course.
tl;dr: we should combat within ourselves decision-making distortions such as those uncovered by PUAs, though only insofar as they are distortions.
the degree to which men pursue good-looking women is probably even greater than can be explained by rational projections of their self-interest, and certainly greater than is pro-social.
Could you elaborate on these claims. Neither is obvious to me. Are you suggesting that people should altruistically pursue relationships with people they are not attracted to?
OK, the “certainly” was an overstatement. Probably there are some arguments from evolution you can make about how it’s probably installed mechanisms that can work against (at the same time as being valid input to) your rational judgments of future happiness or whatever else you’re pursuing. It’s my impression that in men visual attraction is more like this than other considerations, but I might be wrong.
Are you suggesting that people should altruistically pursue relationships with people they are not attracted to?
No, that sounds like a terrible idea. Maybe it could tip the balance in close marginal situations; but I was thinking more in terms of altruistically exerting nonzero psychological effort to change what one finds attractive; I agree though that the process is mostly (or wholly?) not under one’s conscious control. Probably I should have stuck to self-interest, as it’s less minefieldy.
It’s my impression that in men visual attraction is more like this than other considerations, but I might be wrong.
It’s fairly clear that men already do weigh physical attractiveness against other qualities when judging a mate, and in fact use different weights based on the length and nature of the relationship they are considering entering into. I feel I’d need to see more evidence to back up a claim that they consistently over-weight attractiveness in such a way that it works against their own long term interests before accepting that it is the case though.
I agree though that the process is mostly (or wholly?) not under one’s conscious control.
Indeed, ‘attraction is not a choice’. I think there might well be scope for some rationally directed self-manipulation to direct attraction towards individuals that you judge to be more suitable than what your natural unguided instincts would guide you towards. I think it would be very interesting to see a movement amongst women to take the lessons learned by the seduction community and use them to redirect their own feelings of attraction towards individuals who they rationally judged to be more desirable partners.
To provide yet another different male perspective:
Some part of the success caused by “game” can no doubt be explained as a rationally justifiable taking-into-account of genuinely increased excitingness/attractiveness, but some other part of the extra success is no doubt better explained as a direct influence on the decision mechanism, not on the thing that it makes decisions about. “Game” that’s mostly about the former strikes me as being a good thing for the reasons divia mentions; “game” that’s mostly about the latter strikes me as being manipulative.
The part that I haven’t seen emphasized is that in some cases PUA success shows there are security flaws in female decision-making about mating, and just like it’s bad to exploit security flaws, it’s bad not to patch them up. When evidence shows my decisions (or the decisions of members of a group I belong to) are not in line with the values I hold on a conscious level, I worry about how I can defend psychologically against the distortions.
Lest I be seen as taking easy potshots across the gender fence, I think the same is true for men and female appearance: being with a better-looking woman will make a man happier, but the degree to which men pursue good-looking women is probably even greater than can be explained by rational projections of their self-interest, and certainly greater than is pro-social. Men should strive from a selfish point of view to be more immune to this sort of short-circuiting, and from a pro-social point of view to de-correlate their tastes from those of other men and to be less attracted to behaviors that, like “game”, are a pain in the ass unto the behaver. To the degree that that’s even possible, of course.
tl;dr: we should combat within ourselves decision-making distortions such as those uncovered by PUAs, though only insofar as they are distortions.
Could you elaborate on these claims. Neither is obvious to me. Are you suggesting that people should altruistically pursue relationships with people they are not attracted to?
OK, the “certainly” was an overstatement. Probably there are some arguments from evolution you can make about how it’s probably installed mechanisms that can work against (at the same time as being valid input to) your rational judgments of future happiness or whatever else you’re pursuing. It’s my impression that in men visual attraction is more like this than other considerations, but I might be wrong.
No, that sounds like a terrible idea. Maybe it could tip the balance in close marginal situations; but I was thinking more in terms of altruistically exerting nonzero psychological effort to change what one finds attractive; I agree though that the process is mostly (or wholly?) not under one’s conscious control. Probably I should have stuck to self-interest, as it’s less minefieldy.
It’s fairly clear that men already do weigh physical attractiveness against other qualities when judging a mate, and in fact use different weights based on the length and nature of the relationship they are considering entering into. I feel I’d need to see more evidence to back up a claim that they consistently over-weight attractiveness in such a way that it works against their own long term interests before accepting that it is the case though.
Indeed, ‘attraction is not a choice’. I think there might well be scope for some rationally directed self-manipulation to direct attraction towards individuals that you judge to be more suitable than what your natural unguided instincts would guide you towards. I think it would be very interesting to see a movement amongst women to take the lessons learned by the seduction community and use them to redirect their own feelings of attraction towards individuals who they rationally judged to be more desirable partners.