“This post is roughly analogous to the “before” photos that you see people use to demonstrate the effects of dieting, except I want to use it a sort of time capsule to compare my conception of myself as a thinker now to that conception in [some] years time, when I am further along in my studies of rationality and metarationality.”
I like this, and I think it’s a helpful exercise to do! It seems like you’ve been around the community and exposed to the ideas therein for at least some amount of time prior to this post, if you can recall a snapshot of yourself from the time before experiencing this community and its ideas, that could be a good comparison or reference point to explore as well.
What explicit (specific) methodology(ies) will you use to assess and compare yourself across snapshots? And how will said methodology(ies) compare to or build off of extant ones produced by other Rationalists, philosophers, people you think have good judgement, etc.?
I haven’t written a snapshot like you did / what you’re proposing, but whenever I reflect on my current state of being and conceptualise what “level” I’m at with different skills, I have a really hard time coming up with any precise or quantitative comparative statements between my state of being at one time versus another...it’s all very fuzzy and qualitative and not very concrete. Thus, the above two questions, and I’d be interested to hear what you and others think about how one might build methodologies for comparing oneself’s “level” at a certain state of being compared to another at a different time. I have the same issue when I reflect on my university experience and how that changed me, I know it changed my thoroughly in significant ways, but I couldn’t really tell you exactly how or why. Ditto with Rationality and engaging with this community and its ideas since 2015 / 2016.
I know fuzzily that I’m “more better” at quite a few different things such as writing, my analytical skills have improved, I have better control over my emotions and mental states resulting in a greater capability to regulate myself generally, I have better social skills, more friends, a stronger sense of self (what I like, dislike, strive for, have to protect, etc.) despite keeping my identity small all this time, keener intellectual ability, and more. I’m even better at coping with long standing struggles that have challenged me often and significantly throughout my life such as ADHD and chronic depression.
Huh. Maybe some of the things in the above paragraph can be used as comparative reference points. Probably! (had this thought right after writing that paragraph and wanted to leave it and this sentence in to show some “thinkery” in progress; that feels important for some reason)
“One of the valuable things we explored in this epistemology class was the idea that we all think and know in models, using differently detailed models at different times.”
Map versus territory (i.e. differing models and other such things) is a great concept and is explored further here on LessWrong, here’s the page with all such tagged posts: https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/map-and-territory
“The other risk is of course completely losing my own grip on reality and sanity; different people (or machines) seem to have different tolerances of uncertainty, and I know that historically mine is relatively very low. Losing my ability to feel certainty about the most foundational aspects of my existence, and even about certainty itself, might have a highly deleterious impact on my emotional and psychological wellbeing- I’m sure that, like me, lots of people have experienced reading things that literally make their head spin and forced them to step away from the screen for a few minutes just to feel stable again.”
Undergoing major shifts in identity, philosophical thought, spiritual thought, and/or other significant things humans think about can lead quickly to that foundationless feeling of terrible uncertainty. Such an experience is something that many individuals have gone through and survived, but I’m glad you’ve explicitly pointed it out as something you’re worried about, because you do want to be cognizant of that kind of experience occurring while rewriting your own self’s software :) In spiritual circles such an experience tends to be called a “Dark night of the soul”, but I’m certain what the more secular term is, though I have seen the concept / experience discussed here on LessWrong several times, maybe another individual can provide links to those or other helpful posts on the topic.
Other than reality itself and the laws that govern it, I don’t think there is actually a “true” foundation for any thoughts, intellectual edifices, paradigms, etc. I’ve been operating under this belief and the belief that there is no meaning to anything (inherently, for the universe does not care) for a few years now and what’s helped me is thinking about how the world might or might not look if some ideas are true or not, reflecting on what Wittgenstein’s “Language Games” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_game_(philosophy)) mean / entail / imply, and that if I’m floundering in the dark, I can choose an extant intellectual / ontological foundation to use as a life raft temporarily (though none that aren’t plausible). Also, the higher than reasonable certainty that tomorrow morning, the sun will have risen, people will go about their days, life will continue for another 24 hours, and so on. I find that reassuring and helpful. Sometimes it’s better to not think too much about some particular thing, for at least some of the time, and just “be” instead.
“Of course, there’s a non-zero probability that this is the last thing I ever write on the matter and none of this is ever worth anything, but I’ve enjoyed writing it so that’s probably enough in and of itself.”
You enjoyed writing it and have also described what seems like a good exercise for people to do, given either of those things independently or both together I believe that means that your post was worth something rather than nothing, yes? I think so :) After reading your post I now want to do the same exercise and see what I find / come up with.
Thanks for your kind, encouraging, and thought-provoking comment Willa :)
Definitely the ideal would have been to write this earlier on- the post itself has been on my list to write for a long time, which probably didn’t help. I like the idea of having some kind of objective comparison method- the ideal would be some kind of Rationality score, but I don’t know if that kind of thing does/could ever exist, or would even reflect the breadth of change one is likely to experience enough to make it even vaguely useful.
I think “dark night of the soul” works pretty well as a descriptor of the experience we’re talking about, although to me it conjures some images of being either guilty or having to make a difficult choice, rather than necessarily specifically having your cognitive foundations shaken. Whatever we call it, I would- as you suggested- be interested to hear how other’s dealt with it, and how they managed to fulfil their responsibilities in other areas of life when at times everything else can suddenly seem quite unimportant.
Your ideas for avoiding our Dark Night sound reasonable and it comforts me that you seem to be a lot further on in your “thought journey” and still find solace somewhere; I guess my worry would be that lifeboats might not be enough for me to retain enough functioning for the rest of my life, and I would like a reasonably solid intellectual terra firma to act from. I think your idea about self-talking with very concrete, predictable things is likely to help, and I have heard of such things being used for anxiety attacks and the like.
I’m interested to hear what your “snapshot” looks like- even if you’re not at the beginning of your journey, it’s probably worth doing both for yourself and for other travellers. And thanks again for your encouraging and thoughtful reply- lots to consider!
I think we may not ever reach some sort of objective comparison method, but, I suspect a list of achievements, habits / actions that become habitual for someone, and so on could be created that would map decently to some notion of what Rationalists Self-Improvement ought to look like. For example, with few exceptions, a person who does not exercise regularly nor eat a decent diet but manages to change to where they regularly exercised and ate a decent diet would be a great example of Rationalist Self-Improvement (to be a Rationalist and not do those things is definitely a failure mode, and I’m still trying to overcome that failure mode myself). I think mental habits, modes of thinking, identity things, and so on related to what someone ought to be like / be capable of as a “Rationalists” would be waaaaaay more difficult to add to such a list without being too alienating or too arbitrary, but I suspect there are things, that could be added.
Why does “dark night of the soul” conjure images of being either guilty or having to make a difficult choice in your mind? Also, I believe the term applies to even more situations than just cognitive foundations being kicked out from under oneself, it is very applicable to similar situations occurring around identity, the self, and more, I think.
I’ve been told that Daoism is a particularly good tradition to look into for living foundationlessly. I don’t know much about it, but I’ve bought a few books and will begin learning more about it. Thus far what’s helped me the most, intellectually anyways, are probably postmoderism and continental philosophy more generally. All those esoteric French philosophers, basically. I’ve done pretty okay with functioning while not “having a center” or while not having a foundation for self nor identity nor ideas. Those philosophers and ideas have been helpful, though the praxis of meditation and mindfulness has probably been more helpful.
I hope your last month has gone well! How have your considerations gone?
I’ve decided that I do want to do a snapshot, however, my plan is to form a group to do the Hammertime sequences. Upon forming a group and prior to doing those sequences is when I’ll write a snapshot of my present self (with what I can remember of how I was at times previous) so that after doing Hammertime I can write a new snapshot then and find out how much doing the Hammertime sequences was or wasn’t beneficial and in what directions if any. Want to join that group?
“This post is roughly analogous to the “before” photos that you see people use to demonstrate the effects of dieting, except I want to use it a sort of time capsule to compare my conception of myself as a thinker now to that conception in [some] years time, when I am further along in my studies of rationality and metarationality.”
I like this, and I think it’s a helpful exercise to do! It seems like you’ve been around the community and exposed to the ideas therein for at least some amount of time prior to this post, if you can recall a snapshot of yourself from the time before experiencing this community and its ideas, that could be a good comparison or reference point to explore as well.
What explicit (specific) methodology(ies) will you use to assess and compare yourself across snapshots? And how will said methodology(ies) compare to or build off of extant ones produced by other Rationalists, philosophers, people you think have good judgement, etc.?
I haven’t written a snapshot like you did / what you’re proposing, but whenever I reflect on my current state of being and conceptualise what “level” I’m at with different skills, I have a really hard time coming up with any precise or quantitative comparative statements between my state of being at one time versus another...it’s all very fuzzy and qualitative and not very concrete. Thus, the above two questions, and I’d be interested to hear what you and others think about how one might build methodologies for comparing oneself’s “level” at a certain state of being compared to another at a different time. I have the same issue when I reflect on my university experience and how that changed me, I know it changed my thoroughly in significant ways, but I couldn’t really tell you exactly how or why. Ditto with Rationality and engaging with this community and its ideas since 2015 / 2016.
I know fuzzily that I’m “more better” at quite a few different things such as writing, my analytical skills have improved, I have better control over my emotions and mental states resulting in a greater capability to regulate myself generally, I have better social skills, more friends, a stronger sense of self (what I like, dislike, strive for, have to protect, etc.) despite keeping my identity small all this time, keener intellectual ability, and more. I’m even better at coping with long standing struggles that have challenged me often and significantly throughout my life such as ADHD and chronic depression.
Huh. Maybe some of the things in the above paragraph can be used as comparative reference points. Probably! (had this thought right after writing that paragraph and wanted to leave it and this sentence in to show some “thinkery” in progress; that feels important for some reason)
“One of the valuable things we explored in this epistemology class was the idea that we all think and know in models, using differently detailed models at different times.”
Map versus territory (i.e. differing models and other such things) is a great concept and is explored further here on LessWrong, here’s the page with all such tagged posts: https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/map-and-territory
“The other risk is of course completely losing my own grip on reality and sanity; different people (or machines) seem to have different tolerances of uncertainty, and I know that historically mine is relatively very low. Losing my ability to feel certainty about the most foundational aspects of my existence, and even about certainty itself, might have a highly deleterious impact on my emotional and psychological wellbeing- I’m sure that, like me, lots of people have experienced reading things that literally make their head spin and forced them to step away from the screen for a few minutes just to feel stable again.”
Undergoing major shifts in identity, philosophical thought, spiritual thought, and/or other significant things humans think about can lead quickly to that foundationless feeling of terrible uncertainty. Such an experience is something that many individuals have gone through and survived, but I’m glad you’ve explicitly pointed it out as something you’re worried about, because you do want to be cognizant of that kind of experience occurring while rewriting your own self’s software :) In spiritual circles such an experience tends to be called a “Dark night of the soul”, but I’m certain what the more secular term is, though I have seen the concept / experience discussed here on LessWrong several times, maybe another individual can provide links to those or other helpful posts on the topic.
Other than reality itself and the laws that govern it, I don’t think there is actually a “true” foundation for any thoughts, intellectual edifices, paradigms, etc. I’ve been operating under this belief and the belief that there is no meaning to anything (inherently, for the universe does not care) for a few years now and what’s helped me is thinking about how the world might or might not look if some ideas are true or not, reflecting on what Wittgenstein’s “Language Games” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_game_(philosophy)) mean / entail / imply, and that if I’m floundering in the dark, I can choose an extant intellectual / ontological foundation to use as a life raft temporarily (though none that aren’t plausible). Also, the higher than reasonable certainty that tomorrow morning, the sun will have risen, people will go about their days, life will continue for another 24 hours, and so on. I find that reassuring and helpful. Sometimes it’s better to not think too much about some particular thing, for at least some of the time, and just “be” instead.
“Of course, there’s a non-zero probability that this is the last thing I ever write on the matter and none of this is ever worth anything, but I’ve enjoyed writing it so that’s probably enough in and of itself.”
You enjoyed writing it and have also described what seems like a good exercise for people to do, given either of those things independently or both together I believe that means that your post was worth something rather than nothing, yes? I think so :) After reading your post I now want to do the same exercise and see what I find / come up with.
Happy writing! Cheers, Willa
Thanks for your kind, encouraging, and thought-provoking comment Willa :)
Definitely the ideal would have been to write this earlier on- the post itself has been on my list to write for a long time, which probably didn’t help. I like the idea of having some kind of objective comparison method- the ideal would be some kind of Rationality score, but I don’t know if that kind of thing does/could ever exist, or would even reflect the breadth of change one is likely to experience enough to make it even vaguely useful.
I think “dark night of the soul” works pretty well as a descriptor of the experience we’re talking about, although to me it conjures some images of being either guilty or having to make a difficult choice, rather than necessarily specifically having your cognitive foundations shaken. Whatever we call it, I would- as you suggested- be interested to hear how other’s dealt with it, and how they managed to fulfil their responsibilities in other areas of life when at times everything else can suddenly seem quite unimportant.
Your ideas for avoiding our Dark Night sound reasonable and it comforts me that you seem to be a lot further on in your “thought journey” and still find solace somewhere; I guess my worry would be that lifeboats might not be enough for me to retain enough functioning for the rest of my life, and I would like a reasonably solid intellectual terra firma to act from. I think your idea about self-talking with very concrete, predictable things is likely to help, and I have heard of such things being used for anxiety attacks and the like.
I’m interested to hear what your “snapshot” looks like- even if you’re not at the beginning of your journey, it’s probably worth doing both for yourself and for other travellers. And thanks again for your encouraging and thoughtful reply- lots to consider!
Cheers :)
I think we may not ever reach some sort of objective comparison method, but, I suspect a list of achievements, habits / actions that become habitual for someone, and so on could be created that would map decently to some notion of what Rationalists Self-Improvement ought to look like. For example, with few exceptions, a person who does not exercise regularly nor eat a decent diet but manages to change to where they regularly exercised and ate a decent diet would be a great example of Rationalist Self-Improvement (to be a Rationalist and not do those things is definitely a failure mode, and I’m still trying to overcome that failure mode myself). I think mental habits, modes of thinking, identity things, and so on related to what someone ought to be like / be capable of as a “Rationalists” would be waaaaaay more difficult to add to such a list without being too alienating or too arbitrary, but I suspect there are things, that could be added.
Why does “dark night of the soul” conjure images of being either guilty or having to make a difficult choice in your mind? Also, I believe the term applies to even more situations than just cognitive foundations being kicked out from under oneself, it is very applicable to similar situations occurring around identity, the self, and more, I think.
I’ve been told that Daoism is a particularly good tradition to look into for living foundationlessly. I don’t know much about it, but I’ve bought a few books and will begin learning more about it. Thus far what’s helped me the most, intellectually anyways, are probably postmoderism and continental philosophy more generally. All those esoteric French philosophers, basically. I’ve done pretty okay with functioning while not “having a center” or while not having a foundation for self nor identity nor ideas. Those philosophers and ideas have been helpful, though the praxis of meditation and mindfulness has probably been more helpful.
I hope your last month has gone well! How have your considerations gone?
I’ve decided that I do want to do a snapshot, however, my plan is to form a group to do the Hammertime sequences. Upon forming a group and prior to doing those sequences is when I’ll write a snapshot of my present self (with what I can remember of how I was at times previous) so that after doing Hammertime I can write a new snapshot then and find out how much doing the Hammertime sequences was or wasn’t beneficial and in what directions if any. Want to join that group?