Good points! I didn’t get into ‘How do you really calculate the net-societal utility outcome of your actions, including second+ order effects?’ since I think even the 1st order immediate consequence calculation is intractable.
In practice you shouldn’t … help people that will do harm with your help. I think this is one of the limits of pacifism(with Kaladin’s dad being an example of that, incidentally) at some point passive obedience to an unjust opressor has the same consequences for the other people they harm as active cooperation. It is a moral duty to actually do something to harm or at least minimally help a person or institution or government from doing bad things. Just saying I don’t like what this Hitler guy is doing with my tax money isn’t really acceptable once the harm he’s causing becomes really monstrous. So if I’m really calculating paying 2 personal utility to generate 4 utility for Bob, I should take into account what Bob’s actually gonna do with his 4 utility. But again that becomes computationally impossible almost immediately, hence we use heuristics(aka moral principles) to dictate how we should behave.
By politics I mean governance, collective action via voluntary organisations and state action.
The connection seems clear to me: I want to pool resources with others in a way that makes all of us better off. Increasingly elaborate and large scale systems of social coordination is how we do that and that’s what modern states are. (for better or for worse and as hijacked by niche, elite special interests as they can seem to be and/or actually are)
As … disappointing as contemporary western governments are, I still think most ‘charity’ or utility redistribution in modern societies is done by government via schools, healthcare, pensions, police and other security systems and relatively cheap/free infrastructure. These are all things that were privileges or luxuries in the past that are now baseline and we all pay for them together.
The modern idea is that politics is dirty and gross. And pretty much any politician I can think of off the top of my head is at best disappointing, at worst vile. However, developed societies went from feudal serfdom or slavery or highly unequal large underclass early industrial society to modern social democratic welfare states with a historically relatively high standard of living even for the worst off(or at least for the almost worst off, the really lumpenproletariat among us aren’t doing that great, but the people at the bottom 15% threshold are, relatively speaking).
This transformation happened because people, not necessarily professional politicians but some were that as well, pushed for change in an intentional, organised and persistent way. And they got it.
The grossness of modern politicians is a problem that will either be solved by better politicians emerging or will destroy our societies. Crap elites kill civilizations.
Without organised, collective action towards the goal of improving our lives in specific ways, with specific policies … we won’t get the things we want. Society doesn’t get better randomly, it gets better because groups of people agitate in a direction they think will make it better and sometimes they get what they want and sometimes what they wanted actually was a good idea.
I opened a tab with this comment as something I want to answer too, when an opportunity arise for that. it was two years now, and the tab remain open. I wrote twopost about that in my blog, and clarified my thinking about the issue a lot. and yet, I still believe what I believed then, although hopefully I’m more capable to express this. not sure if that, English is hard. but, it’s worth trying.
here is my opinion, in its most simple form: one should not be cooperation bot.
if I have repeated opportunities to pay 1 unit to get someone 10 units, and they have the same option, it’s better for us both to make those trades. but if the other people refuse to do that, they take happily the provided 10 units and then not give up 1 unit to give me 1, I should stop.
and this is what I remember I want to write to you, 2 years ago, and didn’t succeeded on the first try. you call for Civic Duty look to me as call to cooperate even if the other side defect, call to create cooperation-cooperation equilibrium, while ignoring that other people not cooperating.
there is no such thing as acceptable exchange rate, that is the wrong category. there is an option to enter agreement to cooperate, to exchange 1 unit of mine for 10 or 100 or 1000000 of yours if the opportunity arise. and the right thing to do is tit-for-tat with forgiveness. and it’s definitely not being cooperation bot. and deciding that if the exchange rate is high enough you must take it, it’s you civic duty, is just calling people to be cooperation bots, and punish those who don’t do that, while ignoring the important difference between those who enter the agreement and those who don’t.
***
I don’t really engage with this comment. I don’t think it react to the concept I tried, and failed, to communicate, so I tried again.
but I can say that from my current ontology, when I see Morality-as-Coordination and Morality-as-Do-Gooding as two very different things, the claims about local governments look confused to me. there is “charity” that is coordination, and there is charity that is do-gooding, and those are different things.
most of that governments do is not do-gooding, it’s coordination, with elements on insurance.
Good points! I didn’t get into ‘How do you really calculate the net-societal utility outcome of your actions, including second+ order effects?’ since I think even the 1st order immediate consequence calculation is intractable.
In practice you shouldn’t … help people that will do harm with your help. I think this is one of the limits of pacifism(with Kaladin’s dad being an example of that, incidentally) at some point passive obedience to an unjust opressor has the same consequences for the other people they harm as active cooperation. It is a moral duty to actually do something to harm or at least minimally help a person or institution or government from doing bad things. Just saying I don’t like what this Hitler guy is doing with my tax money isn’t really acceptable once the harm he’s causing becomes really monstrous. So if I’m really calculating paying 2 personal utility to generate 4 utility for Bob, I should take into account what Bob’s actually gonna do with his 4 utility. But again that becomes computationally impossible almost immediately, hence we use heuristics(aka moral principles) to dictate how we should behave.
By politics I mean governance, collective action via voluntary organisations and state action.
The connection seems clear to me: I want to pool resources with others in a way that makes all of us better off. Increasingly elaborate and large scale systems of social coordination is how we do that and that’s what modern states are. (for better or for worse and as hijacked by niche, elite special interests as they can seem to be and/or actually are)
As … disappointing as contemporary western governments are, I still think most ‘charity’ or utility redistribution in modern societies is done by government via schools, healthcare, pensions, police and other security systems and relatively cheap/free infrastructure. These are all things that were privileges or luxuries in the past that are now baseline and we all pay for them together.
The modern idea is that politics is dirty and gross. And pretty much any politician I can think of off the top of my head is at best disappointing, at worst vile. However, developed societies went from feudal serfdom or slavery or highly unequal large underclass early industrial society to modern social democratic welfare states with a historically relatively high standard of living even for the worst off(or at least for the almost worst off, the really lumpenproletariat among us aren’t doing that great, but the people at the bottom 15% threshold are, relatively speaking).
This transformation happened because people, not necessarily professional politicians but some were that as well, pushed for change in an intentional, organised and persistent way. And they got it.
The grossness of modern politicians is a problem that will either be solved by better politicians emerging or will destroy our societies. Crap elites kill civilizations.
Without organised, collective action towards the goal of improving our lives in specific ways, with specific policies … we won’t get the things we want. Society doesn’t get better randomly, it gets better because groups of people agitate in a direction they think will make it better and sometimes they get what they want and sometimes what they wanted actually was a good idea.
I opened a tab with this comment as something I want to answer too, when an opportunity arise for that. it was two years now, and the tab remain open. I wrote two post about that in my blog, and clarified my thinking about the issue a lot. and yet, I still believe what I believed then, although hopefully I’m more capable to express this. not sure if that, English is hard. but, it’s worth trying.
here is my opinion, in its most simple form: one should not be cooperation bot.
if I have repeated opportunities to pay 1 unit to get someone 10 units, and they have the same option, it’s better for us both to make those trades. but if the other people refuse to do that, they take happily the provided 10 units and then not give up 1 unit to give me 1, I should stop.
that is the Morality as “Coordination”, vs “Do-Gooding” distinction.
and this is what I remember I want to write to you, 2 years ago, and didn’t succeeded on the first try. you call for Civic Duty look to me as call to cooperate even if the other side defect, call to create cooperation-cooperation equilibrium, while ignoring that other people not cooperating.
there is no such thing as acceptable exchange rate, that is the wrong category. there is an option to enter agreement to cooperate, to exchange 1 unit of mine for 10 or 100 or 1000000 of yours if the opportunity arise. and the right thing to do is tit-for-tat with forgiveness. and it’s definitely not being cooperation bot. and deciding that if the exchange rate is high enough you must take it, it’s you civic duty, is just calling people to be cooperation bots, and punish those who don’t do that, while ignoring the important difference between those who enter the agreement and those who don’t.
***
I don’t really engage with this comment. I don’t think it react to the concept I tried, and failed, to communicate, so I tried again.
but I can say that from my current ontology, when I see Morality-as-Coordination and Morality-as-Do-Gooding as two very different things, the claims about local governments look confused to me. there is “charity” that is coordination, and there is charity that is do-gooding, and those are different things.
most of that governments do is not do-gooding, it’s coordination, with elements on insurance.