In context its perfectly obvious. The second quote has a implied “eventually”.
As someone who was paying some attention to American politics back then, it sure does seem to me that the people usually described as mainstream conservatives in the U.S. are continuing to object strenuously to many of the same things they were objecting strenuously to in 1982.
Don’t be silly. On economic matters yes, on cultural and social matters the right has utterly lost except perhaps on the issue of abortion. The very fact that today’s debate is about gay marriage (to borrow the issue the OP brought up), should be an indicator of how far to the left 2012 is from 1982 on such issues. How many democrats would have even considered supporting such a notion then?
Mark my words in 2042 conservatives will be defending gay marriage as an integral part of the bedrock of Western civilization.
I didn’t mean to be rude, so I hope I didn’t come of as such. It seemed obvious to me because in the context I was talking about them being “ok with anything” after several decades passing in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way, while in the first one I was describing a proposal I’d like to see implemented right away and how people would currently feel about it.
It wouldn’t make mainstream “conservatives” happy,
Mainstream conservatives will be happy with it too. They aren’t very clever that way, you can change almost anything you want and 30 years later they won’t question it seriously any-more. ;)
As to the meaning of the quotation marks in the first one, I put them there because I think conservatives aren’t very good at conserving much of anything.
A conservative is someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop, at a time when no one is inclined to do so, or to have much patience with those who so urge it.
--William F. Buckley, Jr. in National Review (1955)
The entire movement he and those like him helped create, has only proven itself capable of standing athwart history and yelling “Retreat!”. The politicians associated with that intellectual group are best characterized as standing behind history, yelling: “Wait! Let my voters catch up!”
Everything I see says that Buckley was a really honorable man, simply a good person. That ought to count, a little. (I agree that his movement did little good in practice, though.)
Everything I see says that Buckley was a really honorable man, simply a good person.
My impression is rather more mixed. Buckley, 1986:
But if the time has not come, and may never come, for public identification [of people with HIV], what then of private identification?
Everyone detected with AIDS should be tatooed in the upper forearm, to protect common-needle users, and on the buttocks, to prevent the victimization of other homosexuals.
Someone, 20 years ago, suggested a discreet tattoo the site of which would alert the prospective partner to the danger of proceeding as had been planned. But the author of the idea was treated as though he had been schooled in Buchenwald, and the idea was not widely considered, but maybe it is up now for reconsideration.
[Edited to fix paragraph break in that first Buckley quote.]
I understand why it seemed obvious to you. I also understand that your dismissive rhetorical tone isn’t intended to be rude.
Getting back to content:
I agree with you that if we wait long enough everyone who considers themselves conservative will approve of whatever social changes we make, supposing those social changes last that long.
I don’t believe that implementing your proposal right away will make conservatives currently happy.
I don’t have a clear sense of what you mean by “traditionalists.”
There exists a non-empty set of issues X such that 1982 conservatives agree more with 2012 conservatives on X than they do with 1982 anti-conservatives. There also exists a non-empty set X2 such that 1982 conservatives agree the same or more with 1982 anti-conservatives than with 2012 conservatives on X2. I am not sure whether (X2 > X1) or (X2 < X1) by any interesting metric, and I’m fairly certain that (X1 > .1X2).
I agree with you that if we wait long enough everyone who considers themselves conservative will approve of whatever social changes we make, supposing those social changes last that long.
I don’t believe that implementing your proposal right away will make conservatives currently happy.
We agree on these points.
I don’t have a clear sense of what you mean by “traditionalists.”
Basically people who are nerds about adhering to some older traditional style Christianity. Some of them are protestants but their intellectual core as you may have guessed from the blogs are Catholic and Orthodox. As odd as this might sound American Evangelical fundamentalists are actually mostly practising a young take on the religion.
I am not sure whether (X2 > X1) or (X2 < X1) by any interesting metric, and I’m fairly certain that (X1 > .1X2).
I think X1 probably consists mostly of economic issues.
In context its perfectly obvious. The second quote has a implied “eventually”.
Don’t be silly. On economic matters yes, on cultural and social matters the right has utterly lost except perhaps on the issue of abortion. The very fact that today’s debate is about gay marriage (to borrow the issue the OP brought up), should be an indicator of how far to the left 2012 is from 1982 on such issues. How many democrats would have even considered supporting such a notion then?
Mark my words in 2042 conservatives will be defending gay marriage as an integral part of the bedrock of Western civilization.
Thank you for explaining it despite considering it perfectly obvious.
I didn’t mean to be rude, so I hope I didn’t come of as such. It seemed obvious to me because in the context I was talking about them being “ok with anything” after several decades passing in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way, while in the first one I was describing a proposal I’d like to see implemented right away and how people would currently feel about it.
As to the meaning of the quotation marks in the first one, I put them there because I think conservatives aren’t very good at conserving much of anything.
The entire movement he and those like him helped create, has only proven itself capable of standing athwart history and yelling “Retreat!”. The politicians associated with that intellectual group are best characterized as standing behind history, yelling: “Wait! Let my voters catch up!”
“It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.”—Robert Anton Wilson
Everything I see says that Buckley was a really honorable man, simply a good person. That ought to count, a little. (I agree that his movement did little good in practice, though.)
My impression is rather more mixed. Buckley, 1986:
Buckley, 2006:
[Edited to fix paragraph break in that first Buckley quote.]
I understand why it seemed obvious to you.
I also understand that your dismissive rhetorical tone isn’t intended to be rude.
Getting back to content:
I agree with you that if we wait long enough everyone who considers themselves conservative will approve of whatever social changes we make, supposing those social changes last that long.
I don’t believe that implementing your proposal right away will make conservatives currently happy.
I don’t have a clear sense of what you mean by “traditionalists.”
There exists a non-empty set of issues X such that 1982 conservatives agree more with 2012 conservatives on X than they do with 1982 anti-conservatives. There also exists a non-empty set X2 such that 1982 conservatives agree the same or more with 1982 anti-conservatives than with 2012 conservatives on X2. I am not sure whether (X2 > X1) or (X2 < X1) by any interesting metric, and I’m fairly certain that (X1 > .1X2).
We agree on these points.
Basically people who are nerds about adhering to some older traditional style Christianity. Some of them are protestants but their intellectual core as you may have guessed from the blogs are Catholic and Orthodox. As odd as this might sound American Evangelical fundamentalists are actually mostly practising a young take on the religion.
I think X1 probably consists mostly of economic issues.
That is certainly consistent with a popular narrative about American conservatism now and 40 years ago. Whether statistics back it up, I don’t know.