I personally regard this entire subject as an example of a harmful meme, and will rot13 accordingly.
Jung qbrf rirelbar guvax bs Bcra Vaqvivqhnyvfz, rkcynvarq ol Rqjneq Zvyyre nf gur pbaprcg juvpu cbfvgf:
gung gurer vf bayl bar crefba va gur havirefr, lbh, naq rirelbar lbh frr nebhaq lbh vf ernyyl whfg lbh.
Gur pbaprcg vf rkcynvarq nf n pbagenfg sebz gur pbairagvbany ivrj bs Pybfrq Vaqvivqhnyvfz, va juvpu gurer ner znal crefbaf naq gur Ohqquvfg-yvxr ivrj bs Rzcgl Vaqvivqhnyvfz, va juvpu gurer ner ab crefbaf.
V nfxrq vs gurer jrer nal nethzragf sbe Bcra Vaqvivqhnyvfz, be whfg nethzragf ntnvafg Pybfrq naq Rzcgl Vaqvivqhnyvfz gung yrnir BV nf gur bayl nygreangvir. Vpbcb Irggbev rkcynvarq vg yvxr guvf:
PV pnaabg znantr fngvfsnpgbevyl gur “pbagvahvgl ceboyrz” (jung znxrf lbh gb pbagvahr gb erznva lbh va gvzr). Guvf vf >jul va “Ernfba naq Crefbaf”, Qrerx Cnesvg cebcbfrq RV nf n fbyhgvba. Va “V Nz Lbh”, Qnavry Xbynx cebcbfrq BV, fubjvat >gung grpuavpnyyl gurl ner rdhvinyrag. Fb pubbfvat orgjrra RV naq BV frrzf gb or n znggre bs crefbany gnfgr. Znlor gurve >qvssreraprf zvtug or erqhprq gb n grezvabybtl ceboyrz. Bgurejvfr, V pbafvqre BV zber fgebat orpnhfr vg pna rkcynva jung >V pnyyrq “gur vaqvivqhny rkvfgragvny ceboyrz” [Jung jr zrna jura jr nfx bhefryirf “Pbhyq V unir arire rkvfgrq?”]
Gur rrevrfg cneg nobhg gur Snprobbx tebhc “V Nz Lbh: Qvfphffvbaf va Bcra Vaqvivqhnyvfz” vf gung gur crbcyr va gung tebhc gerng gur pbaprcg bs gurer orvat bayl bar crefba gur fnzr jnl gung Puevfgvnaf gerng gur pbaprcg bs n Tbq gung jvyy qnza gurve ybirq barf gb Uryy sbe abg oryvrivat va Uvz. Vg’f nf vs ab bar va gur tebhc ernyvmrf gur frpbaq yriry vzcyvpngvbaf bs gurer abg orvat nalbar ryfr, be znlor gurl qba’g rira pner.
I’ve already posted this to the previous discussion thread, and despite losing a good chunk of my karma, I don’t feel entirely satisfied with the answers I received. Here’s a link to that post if you’re interested
I’ve already posted this to the previous discussion thread, and despite losing a good chunk of my karma, I don’t feel entirely satisfied with the answers I received.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
You’re being ridiculous when you rot13 this, it’s not actually important or interesting. It’s just a restatement of solipsism in bigger words. Reposting it when people thought originally it was worth down voting makes it even more worthy of downvotes.
Brilliant, fantastic. I’ll be incredibly happy if anyone can link me to a counter argument, because this has been weighing rather heavily on me. Why else would I rot13 this?
counter-argument to WHAT? As with solipsism, this doesn’t seem to anticipate any different experiences. This means that literally every piece of evidence is neutral between the two world-views. Either the universe is the universe and not in your head or it’s in your head and seems like a universe. Either way you can reliably get results from interacting it in certain ways. If the entire universe is a simulation in your brain it’s exactly as complicated and you have as much control over it as if it wasn’t. Why do you care?
To put it another way, there’s no use considering the theory that a malevolent demon is in control of all the information you receive. Everything you know is because it wants you to know it. You can never prove one way or the other if it exists, so it may as well NOT exist.
As with solipsism, this doesn’t seem to anticipate any different experiences. This means that literally every piece of evidence is neutral between the two world-views. Either the universe is the universe and not in your head or it’s in your head and seems like a universe.
Someone else already went that route, and I explained why Open Individualism wasn’t like solipsism. The discussion ended after my response.
Not that I’m advocating the existence of zombies, but technically neither does having a zombie for a boyfriend. Eliezer Yudkowsky didn’t knock-down the zombie possibility by talking about anticipated experiences, he knocked it down by explaining the logical impossibility,
I don’t understand how saying that will make the concept go away.
The logical impossibility depended on how you couldn’t have conversations about consciousness without it. If you’re the only thing that exists how can I disagree with you about it? How did you learn about it from a philosopher?
Had I read the argument from someone else at an earlier date, I’d probably use an argument-from-difference like you are. Such a scenario is more than logically possible- I might have actually considered the problem in the past. I have no doubt that the person who had once disagreed with OI is me.
Do you want to take this to PM, if only to save on your karma?
Nah I’ve pretty much lost interest. Sorry. I don’t particularly care about my karma except as evidence on average. The troll toll doesn’t bother me. This issue is a lot less important to me because I’m not coming from a position of believing I’m the most important thing.
I personally regard this entire subject as an example of a harmful meme, and will rot13 accordingly.
Jung qbrf rirelbar guvax bs Bcra Vaqvivqhnyvfz, rkcynvarq ol Rqjneq Zvyyre nf gur pbaprcg juvpu cbfvgf:
Gur pbaprcg vf rkcynvarq nf n pbagenfg sebz gur pbairagvbany ivrj bs Pybfrq Vaqvivqhnyvfz, va juvpu gurer ner znal crefbaf naq gur Ohqquvfg-yvxr ivrj bs Rzcgl Vaqvivqhnyvfz, va juvpu gurer ner ab crefbaf.
V nfxrq vs gurer jrer nal nethzragf sbe Bcra Vaqvivqhnyvfz, be whfg nethzragf ntnvafg Pybfrq naq Rzcgl Vaqvivqhnyvfz gung yrnir BV nf gur bayl nygreangvir. Vpbcb Irggbev rkcynvarq vg yvxr guvf:
Gur rrevrfg cneg nobhg gur Snprobbx tebhc “V Nz Lbh: Qvfphffvbaf va Bcra Vaqvivqhnyvfz” vf gung gur crbcyr va gung tebhc gerng gur pbaprcg bs gurer orvat bayl bar crefba gur fnzr jnl gung Puevfgvnaf gerng gur pbaprcg bs n Tbq gung jvyy qnza gurve ybirq barf gb Uryy sbe abg oryvrivat va Uvz. Vg’f nf vs ab bar va gur tebhc ernyvmrf gur frpbaq yriry vzcyvpngvbaf bs gurer abg orvat nalbar ryfr, be znlor gurl qba’g rira pner.
I’ve already posted this to the previous discussion thread, and despite losing a good chunk of my karma, I don’t feel entirely satisfied with the answers I received. Here’s a link to that post if you’re interested
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I have never seen that phrase applied to a scenario that had changing conditions.
Where are these downvotes coming from?
Me for one.
You’re being ridiculous when you rot13 this, it’s not actually important or interesting. It’s just a restatement of solipsism in bigger words. Reposting it when people thought originally it was worth down voting makes it even more worthy of downvotes.
Brilliant, fantastic. I’ll be incredibly happy if anyone can link me to a counter argument, because this has been weighing rather heavily on me. Why else would I rot13 this?
counter-argument to WHAT? As with solipsism, this doesn’t seem to anticipate any different experiences. This means that literally every piece of evidence is neutral between the two world-views. Either the universe is the universe and not in your head or it’s in your head and seems like a universe. Either way you can reliably get results from interacting it in certain ways. If the entire universe is a simulation in your brain it’s exactly as complicated and you have as much control over it as if it wasn’t. Why do you care?
To put it another way, there’s no use considering the theory that a malevolent demon is in control of all the information you receive. Everything you know is because it wants you to know it. You can never prove one way or the other if it exists, so it may as well NOT exist.
Open Individualism.
Someone else already went that route, and I explained why Open Individualism wasn’t like solipsism. The discussion ended after my response.
That difference has no effect on your anticipated experiences.
Not that I’m advocating the existence of zombies, but technically neither does having a zombie for a boyfriend. Eliezer Yudkowsky didn’t knock-down the zombie possibility by talking about anticipated experiences, he knocked it down by explaining the logical impossibility,
I don’t understand how saying that will make the concept go away.
The logical impossibility depended on how you couldn’t have conversations about consciousness without it. If you’re the only thing that exists how can I disagree with you about it? How did you learn about it from a philosopher?
Had I read the argument from someone else at an earlier date, I’d probably use an argument-from-difference like you are. Such a scenario is more than logically possible- I might have actually considered the problem in the past. I have no doubt that the person who had once disagreed with OI is me.
Do you want to take this to PM, if only to save on your karma?
Nah I’ve pretty much lost interest. Sorry. I don’t particularly care about my karma except as evidence on average. The troll toll doesn’t bother me. This issue is a lot less important to me because I’m not coming from a position of believing I’m the most important thing.
Neither do I.
In that case, can you direct me to any relevant resources?