As a practicing Zen Buddhist this post worries me a bit. Yes, lots of people see juicy things they could gain. Yes, lots of other folks have written books trying to explain how to get them. But to me this approach is missing most of why we practice since we practice no-gain; that is, there would be reason to practice even if you (the big “you”, the imagined, closed self) gained nothing. In fact, the more you try to gain we say the further away you are from attainment! I worry this is leading people down a path that will take them farther away from the Dharma rather than closer to it.
I’m also further worried because meditation and other practices pulled from Buddhism are part of an integrated system that includes a community and teachers to help guide you. There are actually a lot of psychological dangers lurking in your mind and approaching them using isolated bits you pull from systems risks inflicting psychic harm on yourself. I rarely see this mentioned to people, though, who get enthusiastic about isolated parts of Buddhist practice like meditation and excitedly go off to do it in their own life without the support structures in place to enable it.
Maybe my worry can be boiled down to this: Buddhism teaches humility, especially epistemic humility, and I feel like there is an undercurrent in this post suggesting “hey, forget those weird monks and rituals; we can take their ideas and do it without all the weirdness and do it better”. This may not have been Elo’s intention, but if you read the post that way and were thinking of going in that direction, I’d encourage you to reconsider the value of both inter-generational accumulated wisdom and practicing within the context of a tradition with a community to support you in your practice.
Yes these are majorly mentioned in Mctb2. I agree that teachers are valuable. Still I believe a person can go a long way on their own.
There’s a lot more information available today than ever before and it’s remarkably easier for a capable mind to move forward than the traditional secretive way of teaching.
I agree there are dangers, but I believe that many people have already started their journeys. (cryptic but leaving this unexplained) also I believe the community members are already overqualified to handle some of the chaos they might encounter.
The no-gain schools are annoying and muddy the goal. If you are not about any gain or progress then why do you call yourself practicing? Obviously there’s some subtle goal you are moving towards. The Taoism schools of “just give up there’s no point” and, the “you are already enlightened” schools, have useful information but that’s not it. No one is done when they first say “yes I am already enlightened”
At the same time I don’t see an ongoing debate about branches of dao being much use here.
As a practicing Zen Buddhist this post worries me a bit. Yes, lots of people see juicy things they could gain. Yes, lots of other folks have written books trying to explain how to get them. But to me this approach is missing most of why we practice since we practice no-gain; that is, there would be reason to practice even if you (the big “you”, the imagined, closed self) gained nothing. In fact, the more you try to gain we say the further away you are from attainment! I worry this is leading people down a path that will take them farther away from the Dharma rather than closer to it.
I’m also further worried because meditation and other practices pulled from Buddhism are part of an integrated system that includes a community and teachers to help guide you. There are actually a lot of psychological dangers lurking in your mind and approaching them using isolated bits you pull from systems risks inflicting psychic harm on yourself. I rarely see this mentioned to people, though, who get enthusiastic about isolated parts of Buddhist practice like meditation and excitedly go off to do it in their own life without the support structures in place to enable it.
Maybe my worry can be boiled down to this: Buddhism teaches humility, especially epistemic humility, and I feel like there is an undercurrent in this post suggesting “hey, forget those weird monks and rituals; we can take their ideas and do it without all the weirdness and do it better”. This may not have been Elo’s intention, but if you read the post that way and were thinking of going in that direction, I’d encourage you to reconsider the value of both inter-generational accumulated wisdom and practicing within the context of a tradition with a community to support you in your practice.
As somebody who has attempted a goal-oriented practice and failed (and continues to fail :P), I agree with these sentiments :)
See: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GXvNCbmJajvkg4Wsu/tradition-is-smarter-than-you-are
Yes these are majorly mentioned in Mctb2. I agree that teachers are valuable. Still I believe a person can go a long way on their own.
There’s a lot more information available today than ever before and it’s remarkably easier for a capable mind to move forward than the traditional secretive way of teaching.
I agree there are dangers, but I believe that many people have already started their journeys. (cryptic but leaving this unexplained) also I believe the community members are already overqualified to handle some of the chaos they might encounter.
The no-gain schools are annoying and muddy the goal. If you are not about any gain or progress then why do you call yourself practicing? Obviously there’s some subtle goal you are moving towards. The Taoism schools of “just give up there’s no point” and, the “you are already enlightened” schools, have useful information but that’s not it. No one is done when they first say “yes I am already enlightened”
At the same time I don’t see an ongoing debate about branches of dao being much use here.