Except perception doesn’t work like that. We can have two qualitatively different perceptions arising from quantities of the same stimulus. We know that irritation and pain use different nerve endings, for instance; and electric shock in different quantities could turn on irritation at a lower threshold than pain. Similarly, a dim colored light is perceived as color on the cone cells, while a very bright light of the same frequency is perceived as brightness on the rod cells. A baby wailing may be perceived as unpleasant; turn it up to jet-engine volume and it will be perceived as painful.
Okay, good point. But if we change the argument slightly to the smallest perceivable amount of pain it’s still biting a pretty big bullet to say 3^^^3 of those is worse than 50 years of torture.
(the theory would also imply that an infinite amount of irritation is not as bad as a tiny amount of pain, which doesn’t seem to be true)
(the theory would also imply that an infinite amount of irritation is not as bad as a tiny amount of pain, which doesn’t seem to be true)
Hmm not sure. It seems quite plausible to me that for any n, an instance of real harm to one person is worse than n instances of completely harmless irritation to n people. Especially if we consider a bounded utility function; the n instances of irritation have to flatten out at some finite level of disutility, and there is no a priori reason to exclude torture to one person having a worse disutility than that asymptote.
Having said all that, I’m not sure I buy into the concept of completely harmless irritation. I doubt we’d perceive a dust speck as a disutility at all except for the fact that it has small probability of causing big harm (loss of life or offspring) somewhere down the line. A difficulty with the whole problem is the stipulation that the dust specks do nothing except cause slight irritation… no major harm results to any individual. However, throwing a dust speck in someone’s eye would in practice have a very small probability of very real harm, such as distraction while operating dangerous machinery (driving, flying etc), starting an eye infection which leads to months of agony and loss of sight, a slight shock causing a stumble and broken limbs or leading to a bigger shock and heart attack. Even the very mild irritation may be enough to send an irritable person “over the edge” into punching a neighbour, or a gun rampage, or a borderline suicidal person into suicide. All these are spectacularly unlikely for each individual, but if you multiply by 3^^^3 people you still get order 3^^^3 instances of major harm.
With that many instances, it’s even highly likely that at least one of the specs in the eye will offer a rare opportunity for some poor prisoner to escape his captors, who had intended to subject him to 50 years of torture.
the theory would also imply that an infinite amount of irritation is not as bad as a tiny amount of pain, which doesn’t seem to be true)
I’m increasingly convinced that the whole Torture vs. Dust Specks scenario is sparking way more heat than light, but...
I can imagine situations where an infinite amount of some type of irritation integrated to something equivalent to some finite but non-tiny amount of pain. I can even imagine situations where that amount was a matter of preference: if you asked someone what finite level of pain they’d accept to prevent some permanent and annoying but non-painful condition, I’d expect the answers to differ significantly. Granted, “lifelong” is not “infinite”, and there’s hyperbolic discounting and various other issues to correct for, but even after these corrections a finite answer doesn’t seem obviously wrong.
Well, for one thing, pain is not negative utility ….
Pain is a specific set of physiological processes. Recent discoveries suggest that it shares some brain-space with other phenomena such as social rejection and math anxiety, which are phenomenologically distinct.
It is also phenomenologically distinct from the sensations of disgust, grief, shame, or dread — which are all unpleasant and inspire us to avoid their causes. Irritation, anxiety, and many other unpleasant sensations can take away from our ability to experience pleasure; many of them can also make us less effective at achieving our own goals.
In place of an individual experiencing “50 years of torture” in terms of physiological pain, we might consider 50 years of frustration, akin to the myth of Sisyphus or Tantalus; or 50 years of nightmare, akin to that inflicted on Alex Burgess by Morpheus in The Sandman ….
Except perception doesn’t work like that. We can have two qualitatively different perceptions arising from quantities of the same stimulus. We know that irritation and pain use different nerve endings, for instance; and electric shock in different quantities could turn on irritation at a lower threshold than pain. Similarly, a dim colored light is perceived as color on the cone cells, while a very bright light of the same frequency is perceived as brightness on the rod cells. A baby wailing may be perceived as unpleasant; turn it up to jet-engine volume and it will be perceived as painful.
Okay, good point. But if we change the argument slightly to the smallest perceivable amount of pain it’s still biting a pretty big bullet to say 3^^^3 of those is worse than 50 years of torture.
(the theory would also imply that an infinite amount of irritation is not as bad as a tiny amount of pain, which doesn’t seem to be true)
Hmm not sure. It seems quite plausible to me that for any n, an instance of real harm to one person is worse than n instances of completely harmless irritation to n people. Especially if we consider a bounded utility function; the n instances of irritation have to flatten out at some finite level of disutility, and there is no a priori reason to exclude torture to one person having a worse disutility than that asymptote.
Having said all that, I’m not sure I buy into the concept of completely harmless irritation. I doubt we’d perceive a dust speck as a disutility at all except for the fact that it has small probability of causing big harm (loss of life or offspring) somewhere down the line. A difficulty with the whole problem is the stipulation that the dust specks do nothing except cause slight irritation… no major harm results to any individual. However, throwing a dust speck in someone’s eye would in practice have a very small probability of very real harm, such as distraction while operating dangerous machinery (driving, flying etc), starting an eye infection which leads to months of agony and loss of sight, a slight shock causing a stumble and broken limbs or leading to a bigger shock and heart attack. Even the very mild irritation may be enough to send an irritable person “over the edge” into punching a neighbour, or a gun rampage, or a borderline suicidal person into suicide. All these are spectacularly unlikely for each individual, but if you multiply by 3^^^3 people you still get order 3^^^3 instances of major harm.
With that many instances, it’s even highly likely that at least one of the specs in the eye will offer a rare opportunity for some poor prisoner to escape his captors, who had intended to subject him to 50 years of torture.
I’m increasingly convinced that the whole Torture vs. Dust Specks scenario is sparking way more heat than light, but...
I can imagine situations where an infinite amount of some type of irritation integrated to something equivalent to some finite but non-tiny amount of pain. I can even imagine situations where that amount was a matter of preference: if you asked someone what finite level of pain they’d accept to prevent some permanent and annoying but non-painful condition, I’d expect the answers to differ significantly. Granted, “lifelong” is not “infinite”, and there’s hyperbolic discounting and various other issues to correct for, but even after these corrections a finite answer doesn’t seem obviously wrong.
Well, for one thing, pain is not negative utility ….
Pain is a specific set of physiological processes. Recent discoveries suggest that it shares some brain-space with other phenomena such as social rejection and math anxiety, which are phenomenologically distinct.
It is also phenomenologically distinct from the sensations of disgust, grief, shame, or dread — which are all unpleasant and inspire us to avoid their causes. Irritation, anxiety, and many other unpleasant sensations can take away from our ability to experience pleasure; many of them can also make us less effective at achieving our own goals.
In place of an individual experiencing “50 years of torture” in terms of physiological pain, we might consider 50 years of frustration, akin to the myth of Sisyphus or Tantalus; or 50 years of nightmare, akin to that inflicted on Alex Burgess by Morpheus in The Sandman ….