people who want to ‘spread rationalism’ and grow the movement go one way and the people who want to maintain a sense of community and maintain purity go another. I’ve seen the same dynamic at work in the Libertarian party and in Christian churches. I think we have to accept both sides have good points.
I believe the proper solution is like an eukaryotic cell—with outer circle, and inner circle(s). In Christianity, the outer circle is to be formally a Christian, and to visit a church on (some) Sundays. The inner circles are various monastic orders, or becoming a priest, or this kind of stuff. Now you can provide both options for people who want different things. If you just want the warm fuzzy feelings of belonging to a community, here you go. If you want some hardcore stuff, okay, come here.
These two layers need to cooperate: the outer circle must respect the inner circle, but the inner circle must provide some services for the outer circle. -- In case of LW such services would mostly be writing articles or making videos.
The outer circle must be vague enough that anyone can join, but the inner circles must be protected from invasion of charlatans; they must cooperate with each other so that they are able to formally declare someone “not one of us”, if a charlatan tries to take over the system or just benefit from claiming that he is a part of the system. In other words, the inner circles need some system to formally recognize who is an inner circle of the system and who is not.
Looking at rationalist community today, “MIRI representatives” and “CFAR representatives” seem like inner circles, and there are also a few obvious celebrities such as Yvain of SSC. But if the community is going to grow, these people are going to need some common flag to make them different from anyone else who decides to make “rationality” their applause light and gather followers.
But if the community is going to grow, these people are going to need some common flag to make them different from anyone else who decides to make “rationality” their applause light and gather followers.
What, you are not allowed to call yourself a rationalist if you are not affiliated with MIRI, even if you subscribe to branches of Western philosophy descended from Descartes and Kant and Vienna circle...?
I think there should exist a name for the cluster in thingspace that is currently known here as “the rationalist community”. That is my concern. How specifically it will be called, that is less important. We just have to coordinate on using the new name.
Generic “subscribing to branches of Western philosophy descended from Descartes and Kant and Vienna circle” is not exactly the same thing.
Viliam is right that unless we have a name for the cluster in thingspace that is the rationalist community, it’s difficult to talk about. While I can understand why one might be alarmed, but I think MIRI/CFAR representatives mostly want everyone to be able to identify them in a clearly delineated way so that they and only they can claim to speak on behalf of those organizations on manners such as AI safety, existential risk reduction, or their stance on what to make of various parts of the rationality community now that they’re trying to re-engage it. I think everyone can agree that it won’t make anyone better off to confuse people who both identify with the LW/rationality community and those outside of it what MIRI/CFAR actually believe, re: their missions and goals.
This is probably more important to MIRI’s/CFAR’s relationship to EA and academia than people merely involved with LW/rationalists, since what’s perceived as the positions of these organizations could effect how much funding they receive, and their crucial relationships with other organizations working on the same important problems.
I believe the proper solution is like an eukaryotic cell—with outer circle, and inner circle(s). In Christianity, the outer circle is to be formally a Christian, and to visit a church on (some) Sundays. The inner circles are various monastic orders, or becoming a priest, or this kind of stuff. Now you can provide both options for people who want different things. If you just want the warm fuzzy feelings of belonging to a community, here you go. If you want some hardcore stuff, okay, come here.
These two layers need to cooperate: the outer circle must respect the inner circle, but the inner circle must provide some services for the outer circle. -- In case of LW such services would mostly be writing articles or making videos.
The outer circle must be vague enough that anyone can join, but the inner circles must be protected from invasion of charlatans; they must cooperate with each other so that they are able to formally declare someone “not one of us”, if a charlatan tries to take over the system or just benefit from claiming that he is a part of the system. In other words, the inner circles need some system to formally recognize who is an inner circle of the system and who is not.
Looking at rationalist community today, “MIRI representatives” and “CFAR representatives” seem like inner circles, and there are also a few obvious celebrities such as Yvain of SSC. But if the community is going to grow, these people are going to need some common flag to make them different from anyone else who decides to make “rationality” their applause light and gather followers.
What, you are not allowed to call yourself a rationalist if you are not affiliated with MIRI, even if you subscribe to branches of Western philosophy descended from Descartes and Kant and Vienna circle...?
I think there should exist a name for the cluster in thingspace that is currently known here as “the rationalist community”. That is my concern. How specifically it will be called, that is less important. We just have to coordinate on using the new name.
Generic “subscribing to branches of Western philosophy descended from Descartes and Kant and Vienna circle” is not exactly the same thing.
LW crowd.
“The rationalist community” sounds way too hoity-toity and pretentious to me.
Viliam is right that unless we have a name for the cluster in thingspace that is the rationalist community, it’s difficult to talk about. While I can understand why one might be alarmed, but I think MIRI/CFAR representatives mostly want everyone to be able to identify them in a clearly delineated way so that they and only they can claim to speak on behalf of those organizations on manners such as AI safety, existential risk reduction, or their stance on what to make of various parts of the rationality community now that they’re trying to re-engage it. I think everyone can agree that it won’t make anyone better off to confuse people who both identify with the LW/rationality community and those outside of it what MIRI/CFAR actually believe, re: their missions and goals.
This is probably more important to MIRI’s/CFAR’s relationship to EA and academia than people merely involved with LW/rationalists, since what’s perceived as the positions of these organizations could effect how much funding they receive, and their crucial relationships with other organizations working on the same important problems.
The rationality police will come and use the rationality spray on you, leaving your writhing on the floor crying “Oh, my eyes! It burns, IT BURNS!”