Michael, I think I understand what Nick and Matthew are saying, but if I don’t I hope they or you jump in with a barrier-aesthetic/hide-the-ball denuded explanation. I think they’re claiming something like onesself is always changing, or that it’s arbitrarily defined where one’s self ends and other phenomena in apparently reality begins, or that any concept of self becomes absurdly messy under sustained scrutiny. That’s all fine and dandy as far as analysis and descriptions go, but I’m a bit skeptical that they’re right, since as best I can tell the analysis has been done by a couple of people with 3 pound primate brains in a rather enormous and complex apparent reality. If they want to end their lives tonight and bequest all their personal wealth to me (I’ll come out of anonymity for that), I’ll accept that as their decision, and give it a good college try to have their “selves” live on through a “shared awareness” that exists between my ears. But as for me, I’ll still be trying to MMPOOP, rather conservatively, in something closer to its present form of organization. I understand my odds of success may be vanishingly low, but I’m happy to collaborate with similarly inclined folks on this blog or elsewhere.
Hopefully_Anonymous2
Matthew, Well, I checked out the link on Ourobouros and it didn’t spark any great epiphany or change my mind about wanting to MMPOOP first and foremost. That doesn’t make me opposed to other people being altruistic, but I do think that goal should be subordinated to MMPOOP. However, I’m willing to compromise on policy -if that’s what’s necessary to … MMPOOP.
Matthew, I’m not sure I completely understand your last statement, but it hasn’t altered my my belief “that I enjoy (apparently) existing as a subjective conscious entity, and I want to persist existing as a subjective conscious entity -forever, and in a real time sort of way.” I won’t object if you decide to end your life and donate your current possessions and wealth to the charitable organization of your choice (UNICEF, Gates Foundation, Soros Foundation, or something else). But if you decide to persist as an interactive personality in the world with me, it’s going to seem to me like you’re an egoist yourself, and that you’re just not being as transparent about it as I am (although admittedly I would only be this transparent about it anonymously, because of the -irrational in my opinion- social costs that many people seem to want to burden transparent egoists with.
I’ll check out your link but a more detailed explanation from you of that last sentence would probably be welcome, too.
ps. I think there is some irony in naming people as being notable for having ceased to identified with self.
An interesting (and in my opinion daring) point, Eliezer, although I’m not sure if it’s true or not, because I’m not sure about the degree to which genetics, etc. plays a role in creating “evil mutants”. After all, people who commit 9/11 type acts ARE rare. The 9/11 participants in my understanding included people with masters degrees and people with long periods of exposure to the West, and that even enjoyed Western comforts immediately prior to their act. I’m not sure if they’re representative of “muslim males” as much as they’re representative of people that belong to death cults. Just because they’re widely admired in some parts of the world doesn’t mean that they’d have many imitators. It defies most forms of “selfish gene” logic to kill onesself prior to procreating, particularly if one is a young healthy male. I do think it’s possible that the actual 9/11 participants were deviant in all sorts of ways, rather than representatives of people that grow up culturally non-western and muslim rather than culturally western (muslim or not). However, I think you still make great points about the not-always-utilitarian human bias of picking a side and then supporting all of its arguments, rather than focusing on what mix of policy is actually best.
Nick, this is great, we have an interesting agreement. :) We may want to discuss this by email so we don’t take over the thread, although I think it would be great if overcomingbias incorporate regular open threads and a sister message board. I don’t care whether or not selfishness is more rationally justifiable than altruism or not. In fact, I’m not even sure what that means because the first principles behind that statement don’t seem clear to me. Unless your point is that all first principles are arbitrary. I look at it from the perspective that I enjoy (apparently) existing as a subjective conscious entity, and I want to persist existing as a subjective conscious entity -forever, and in a real time sort of way. I think that defines me as an egoist (a classic egoist sentence in itself?). As a consequentialist, altruists only bother me to the extent that they may adversely impact my odds of persistence by engaging in their altruistic behavior, more rationally justifiable or not. To the extent that they positively impact -or even better, optimize- my odds of persistence, they’re a phenomenon that I want to encourage. You live in a universe with me in it, Nick. And you seem to me to be a bright person. So, given that you seem to want us both to do what’s most rationally justifiable, and I want us to do what will maximize my personal odds of persistence, I’m hoping there’s some common ground we can meet, that will in the process MMPOOP (maximize my personal odds of persistence) -please pardon the unsavory acronym.
Nick, I don’t think we should all intrinsically care about saving the world. I think you, me, and whoever would socially contract with us and could add value should care about saving ourselves. Since we can’t currently survive without the world (the Earth, Sun, and moon in their current general states) we need to conserve it to the degree that we need it to survive. Going beyond that in my opinion is bias, arbitrary aesthetics, irrational, or some combination of the three, and could problematically interfere with our mutual persistence.
Matthew, I agree. The flip side of Hansen’s recent post on freethinkers, is that we as inhabitants of a system with undiscriminating free thinkers in it would be rational not to reject their innovative good ideas simply because they’re paired with a bunch of aesthetically off-putting contrarian ideas. I’m positing Kevembuangga to be such a free thinker in relation to many overcomingbias contributors.
I agree with James Somers. Best post on this blog I’ve read so far. Best short writing that I’ve read in a while anywhere, Eliezer.
Elizier, you comment “And yet people sometimes ask me why I want to save the world”. I think you have a rational reason to save the world: You and I both live here on planet Earth. If the two of us can persist without a saved habitable Earth, then I do think it becomes to a degree more disposable. But we seem to be a bit far from that point at present.
Barkley Rosser,
I haven’t studied the issue, but I suspect that the “objective” determination is that the US Govt. is less likely to default on bonds than the Japanese govt. Really. Japan had regime change as recently as the 1940s. And as a country, it probably faces greater threats than does the United States, particularly from China and North Korea. However, Tbills and Japanese govt. bonds are most likely in an elite class, in terms being seen as relatively low risk places to invest money.
Eliezer, Your criticism seems a bit superficial (in that I think almost everyone already realizes that T-bills aren’t inherently “risk-free”), it’s just that the U.S. federal government is perceived to have the best credit-rating in the world, in terms of likelihood to pay back money loaned to it.
Still I think it can be useful to be reminded of obvious things.
Zubon, I think that was much more true in 1950 (when I think the us. was 50% of the world economy) than it is to day, post-Cold War, when the US might be under 20% of the world economy, and where appreciation of market economics and liberal government are widely appreciated. Thankfully world economic product has heavily diversified away from the United State. With regions like the EU and East Asia, I think even a particularly disastrous US collapse wouldn’t take the rest of the world down with it.