The disticintion between instrumental values and terminal values is useful in thinking about political and economic issues (the 2 areas I’ve thought about so far…) I’m running into a problem with ‘terminal’ values, and I wonder if this isn’t typical. A terminal value implies the future in a way that an insturmental value does not. The instrumental value is for an action carried out in a finite time and leads to an outcome in the foreseeable future. A terminal value posits all futures—this is an endless recusive algorithm. (At least I don’t have an end to the future in my thinking now). When I ask myself, “How do I want things to be in the future?” I can carry this question out only so far, but my concept of the future goes well beyond any currently imaginable scenarios.
douglas
The non-linear nature of ‘qualia’ and the difficulty of assigning a utility function to such things as ‘minor annoyance’ has been noted before. It seems to some insolvable. One solution presented by Dennett in ‘Consciousness Explained’ is to suggest that there is no such thing as qualia or subjective experience. There are only objective facts. As Searle calls it ‘consciousness denied’. With this approach it would (at least theoretically) be possible to objectively determine the answer to this question based on something like the number of ergs needed to fire the neurons that would represent the outcomes of the two different choices. The idea of which would be the more/less pleasant experience is therefore not relevant as there is no subjective experience to be had in the first place. Of course I’m being sloppy here- the word choice would have to be re-defined to include that each action is determined by the physical configuration of the brain and that the chooser is in fact a fictional construct of that physical configuration. Otherwise, I admit that 3^^^3 people is not something I can easily contemplate, and that clouds my ability to think of an answer to this question.
g- the man said, “I don’t believe AI is possible because only God can make a soul.” ”...If I can make an AI it proves your religion false?” Somebody in this exchange has equated the making of an AI with the making of a soul. That’s why I would suggest that the words have been confused. An AI is not a soul would be useful in this discussion because it would clarify that the making of one would not invalidate the existence of the other or the statement that “only God can make a soul”. Comparing the two notions would not be a problem, equating them is. You seem somewhat willing to (at least partially)accept the existence of AI based on bizarre hypothesis. If you would give me some idea of what sort of evidence you would accept for the existence of a soul, I would be happy to supply it if I can. Thank-you for your interesting comment re: Aumann.
Eliezer, if we reduce every desire to “happiness” than haven’t we just defined away the meaning of the word? I mean love and the pursuit of knowledge and watching a scary movie are all rather different experiences. To say that they are all about happiness—well then, what wouldn’t be? If everything is about happiness, then happiness doesn’t signify anything of meaning, does it?
James, are you purposefully parodying the materialist philosophy based on the disproved Newtonian physics?
selfreferencing, skyfort, David Williams, Thank-you. I’ve always been an immortal spiritual being. Unfortunately my experience with religions has not always been all that religious and I can relate to what Eliezer is saying here. (using religion to spread fear bugs me—I don’t feel the need to be afraid at all.) It is a pleasure to read that you have gotten a better understanding from your theological studies than I got—perhaps I have some bias to overcome before I can see what you do. Thank-you again.
The point about the two philosophers is fantastic! Using religion in an attempt to make people act right out of fear saddens me.
We must not overlook the number one reason something is difficult to explain- that is that what one is trying to explain is nonsense. (this is not specifically directed at anyone posting here)
Before using Aumann one should ask, “What does this guy know that I don’t?”
Silas- yes, good point, but an important subset in that the person attempting to do the explaining often overlooks it. When was the last time you were having trouble explaining or understanding something and you asked, “Is this just nonsense?”
Constant- thank-you. Micheal- I was indocrinated into Bayes many years ago. I agree that the probability 0 is not a rational one. (Who would have guessed in 1900 that the things that seemed most certain were wrong?) Or perhaps I should say that the probability 0 (or 1) is not a scientific attitude- science is based on looking to know- the assumption on probability 0 is the excuse to not look. I’m thinking that is a difference between religion and science- science has to be wrong (so that it can advance) whereas religion has to be right (to be worthy of total faith). Hmmm, I like that.
Constant- You make an excellent point. One question that often needs to be asked when reading experiments is- “Does the conclusion follow from the evidence presented?” (I often find the answer to be ‘maybe not’ Is the ability to vizualize a learned skill? Can you train someone to be better at it? I grew up with three brothers all about my age and my mother would often ask, “How would you like it if your brother did that to you?” This had an effect on me (or am I just imagining it?) Anyone know of such a study?
“I find myself in a simple world rather than a noisy one.”
Care to expand on that?
Humor seems the most difficult. Once I taught a guy from Sweden English. One day he read an article in the newspaper to me and could tell me what it meant—no problem. When we got to the comics page… the humor didn’t translate at all. I still don’t know why the difference was so marked.
Eliezer- I like these ideas. I’m thinking a possible distinction between a seeker (one attempting to overcome bias) and a dogmatist (one attempting to defend bias) would be that a seeker takes a pragmatic rationality and looks for exceptions (thereby continuing to look for the deeper epistemic rationality) whereas a dogmatist takes a pragmatic rationality and turns it into an epistemic rationality by ignoring or redefining exceptions. Am I understanding?
g—cats without heritable variation? Where you get some of them?
J Thomas—”in principle you ought to consider the entire state of the future universe when you set a terminal value.” Yes, and in practice we don’t. But as I look further into the future to see the consequences of my terminal value(s), that’s when the trouble begins.
igor—I want to defend Eliezer’s bias against boredom. It seems that many of the ‘most moral’ terminal values (total freedom, complete knowledge, endless bliss...) would end up in a condition of hideous boredom. Maybe that’s why we don’t achieve them.
Richard- I read your post. I agree with the conclusions to a large extent, but totally disagree with the premises. (For example- I think the only valueable thing is subjective experience) Isn’t that amazing?
Some new info re: evolution you might want to consider before taking the gene view of evolution to its logical conclusions:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/qh67113u60887314/ “Although we agree that evolutionary theory is not undergoing a Kuhnian revolution, the incorporation of new data and ideas about hereditary variation, and about the role of development in generating it, is leading to a version of Darwinism that is very different from the gene-centred one that dominated evolutionary thinking in the second half of the twentieth century.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/09/030929054959.htm how new thinking applies to societies
Before deciding that Gould’s theory was wrong or unimportant, read something from 2007. www.biology-direct.com/content/2/1/21
For a rationalists reason for going from atheism to a belief in God see www.biola.edu/anthonyflew/index.cfm
For the scientific case for the existence of the soul see the books 1)Mario Beauregard “The Spiritual Brain, A Neuroscientist’s Case for the Existence of the Soul” (This book is written by the leading brain researcher on spiritual experience and is suitable for non-experts) 2)”Irreducible Mind” by Kelly and Kelly et.al. (This book is writen for psychologists and advanced students—assumes some knowledge of philosophy and psychology—the authors inform me that they have no current plans to write a similar book for the general public. It is worth the trouble 10 times over in my estimation)