This post seems to be missing one important thing about Culture universe (unless I missed it): in that universe “high-grade transhumanism”, if I understand the term correctly, is possible, and, if anything, common. The Culture is an aberration, one of very few civilization in that universe which is capable of Sublimation, and yet remains in its human form. The only reason for that must be very strong cultural reasons, which are constantly reinforced, because all those who do not agree with them sublimate into incomprehensibility before they can can significantly influence anything.
I think sublimation is a big literary dodge of the very problem of recursive self-improvement, and doesn’t make much sense, neither as a plot device nor as an explanation.
Why yes, yes it is. That would be because Banks can’t actually write superintelligences, having only a human brain to run them on.
Oh, and it lets him add the sci-fi cliches of Precursors and Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence while keeping it reasonably original vaguely realistic, at least until The Hydrogen Sonata. And it clears away all the near-omnipotent Elder Civilizations that should be hanging around.
For me it just spoiled the whole thing. Banks should’ve kept to his original design where he’d never thought of RSI, and hence it’s neither mentioned nor handwaved away, and the Culture and Idarans were both doing their best. I can suspend my disbelief for that universe just like I can suspend my belief for FTL travel. I can’t suspend my disbelief in the face of a bad handwave, it just throws me right out of the story.
What’s the relevant difference between Banks’ Sublimation and Vinge’s Transcend? Vinge divides up his Zones of Thought by galactic geography, whereas Banks does it by physical dimensions, but surely that doesn’t matter. Is it that Vinge talks about Transcendence being an inherently dangerous process, whereas in Banks’ universe it seems virtually impossible for Sublimation to go wrong?
Vinge gives you a huge, blatant plot device up front and doesn’t try to rationalize it or handwave it. I’m okay with that on a literary level, just like I’d be okay with Banks just not talking about RSI.
I still don’t understand what is it that you think Banks is doing that Vinge isn’t, that makes you unable to enjoy Banks. Although on second thought maybe it’s better that I don’t find out, in case I become similarly afflicted. :)
I don’t want to spoil anything, but you probably shouldn’t read The Hydrogen Sonata if Sublimation is already killing your SOD. It threw me right out, that’s for sure.
But it’s oddly religiious for a fully-paid-up athiest. Reminds me of something.....
Zing.
EDIT:
It explains why Minds are so quirky (Look to Windwards)
I can’t get at my copy of LTW. What is the explanation? That they have to be to avoid realizing that Sublimation is clealry an awesome idea and they should do it? (I assume if it was a plot point I would remember it, but rot13 might be a good idea for anyone answering just to be on the safe side.)
This post seems to be missing one important thing about Culture universe (unless I missed it): in that universe “high-grade transhumanism”, if I understand the term correctly, is possible, and, if anything, common. The Culture is an aberration, one of very few civilization in that universe which is capable of Sublimation, and yet remains in its human form. The only reason for that must be very strong cultural reasons, which are constantly reinforced, because all those who do not agree with them sublimate into incomprehensibility before they can can significantly influence anything.
I think sublimation is a big literary dodge of the very problem of recursive self-improvement, and doesn’t make much sense, neither as a plot device nor as an explanation.
Why yes, yes it is. That would be because Banks can’t actually write superintelligences, having only a human brain to run them on.
Oh, and it lets him add the sci-fi cliches of Precursors and Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence while keeping it reasonably original vaguely realistic, at least until The Hydrogen Sonata. And it clears away all the near-omnipotent Elder Civilizations that should be hanging around.
For me it just spoiled the whole thing. Banks should’ve kept to his original design where he’d never thought of RSI, and hence it’s neither mentioned nor handwaved away, and the Culture and Idarans were both doing their best. I can suspend my disbelief for that universe just like I can suspend my belief for FTL travel. I can’t suspend my disbelief in the face of a bad handwave, it just throws me right out of the story.
What’s the relevant difference between Banks’ Sublimation and Vinge’s Transcend? Vinge divides up his Zones of Thought by galactic geography, whereas Banks does it by physical dimensions, but surely that doesn’t matter. Is it that Vinge talks about Transcendence being an inherently dangerous process, whereas in Banks’ universe it seems virtually impossible for Sublimation to go wrong?
Vinge gives you a huge, blatant plot device up front and doesn’t try to rationalize it or handwave it. I’m okay with that on a literary level, just like I’d be okay with Banks just not talking about RSI.
.
Do you mean this?
Thanks.
… why did you try to post a link to that?
I still don’t understand what is it that you think Banks is doing that Vinge isn’t, that makes you unable to enjoy Banks. Although on second thought maybe it’s better that I don’t find out, in case I become similarly afflicted. :)
I always saw Subliming as the blatant plot device that thankfully he didn’t try to explain.
I don’t want to spoil anything, but you probably shouldn’t read The Hydrogen Sonata if Sublimation is already killing your SOD. It threw me right out, that’s for sure.
It explains why Minds are so quirky (Look to Windwards)
But it’s oddly religiious for a fully-paid-up athiest. Reminds me of something.....
Zing.
EDIT:
I can’t get at my copy of LTW. What is the explanation? That they have to be to avoid realizing that Sublimation is clealry an awesome idea and they should do it? (I assume if it was a plot point I would remember it, but rot13 might be a good idea for anyone answering just to be on the safe side.)
The idea is that well-balanced Minds sublimate spontaneously as soon as they are booted up.
Ah, I was misremembering that as only perfect abstract reasoners, free of any cultural mores.