Under this definition of ‘manipulation’, telling someone about a new brand of toothpaste is manipulation, which suggests to me that this framing is overly broad.
The question is whether you believe in any form of personal autonomy, such that a person can be responsible for their own internal changes, even if stimulated by someone or something else. Day to day life suggests this is a useful concept, and that there is a meaningful distinction between being lied to and being given true information, just as there is between coercive-control and sad movies.
I also believe this autonomy is sensibly treated as varying between people. It is sensible to speak of building up independence; equally, it is sensible to speak of communicating whilst respecting others have substantial control over their own preferences.
All this said, I also believe that this is an illusion made possible by the epistemic black-box of inputs and outputs into a person’s basic thought processes. People are sufficiently complex that, whilst we can sometimes predict what they’ll say, feel, or do, it is currently impossible to know exactly what inputs will lead to which outputs. This lack of clarity for both others and the person themselves gives the impression of a free-chooser.
As this veil gets peeled back, we may receive an uncomfortable degree of knowledge about ourselves and others.
SeñorDingDong, thank you for your thoughts on this.
Let’s assume that a human is a biological system with various levers and buttons and that every human action is goal oriented, no matter how small of an action. In the interaction of two of these systems, both have a goal with the interaction (no matter how small or insignificant). Both systems knows that the other system has levers and buttons that can change that system into complying with each systems goal. A Is it then unreasonable to frame this and all other interactions between these two systems as attempts to manipulate the other system to achieve a specific goal?
Example. System A see System B in a nightclub. A think that B is a rather sassy system and wants its attention. A walk past B and try to get eye contact by looking intently at B. A knows (thinks) that staring is a lever to pull or a button to push to turn B’s head and get B’s attention. B notice A gaze and eye contact is established. A’s goal is achieved and done so by manipulating B’s system ever so slightly.
Now, as you pointed out, we do not maybe know for sure what cause a specific reaction but that does not mean that we do not want to achieve a specific reaction with our actions. The case of telling someone of a new toothpaste brand is no less of a manipulation attempt then a scammer trying to get someone to give them money under some false pretenses i.e. there is a goal and words are the means to achieve it. What is true or not does not matter.
Say that you want to be nice to your friends when talking about the brand new super good toothpaste they should try. Then your goal is to feel good about yourself and the means to achieve this is to use words (I assume it will not be under gun point, but that is another mean to achieve the same outcome) to manipulate your friends’ system into going to the supermarket and buying and trying that new toothpaste.
Would you mind explain more about what you mean with: “Day to day life suggests this is a useful concept, and that there is a meaningful distinction between being lied to and being given true information, just as there is between coercive-control and sad movies.”? For the sake of achieving a goal I cannot not see why this would matter. Placebo is a good example of this. If you are lied into believing that a sugar pill will cure cancer and it does, would you rather have had the truth about the pill?
Under this definition of ‘manipulation’, telling someone about a new brand of toothpaste is manipulation, which suggests to me that this framing is overly broad.
The question is whether you believe in any form of personal autonomy, such that a person can be responsible for their own internal changes, even if stimulated by someone or something else. Day to day life suggests this is a useful concept, and that there is a meaningful distinction between being lied to and being given true information, just as there is between coercive-control and sad movies.
I also believe this autonomy is sensibly treated as varying between people. It is sensible to speak of building up independence; equally, it is sensible to speak of communicating whilst respecting others have substantial control over their own preferences.
All this said, I also believe that this is an illusion made possible by the epistemic black-box of inputs and outputs into a person’s basic thought processes. People are sufficiently complex that, whilst we can sometimes predict what they’ll say, feel, or do, it is currently impossible to know exactly what inputs will lead to which outputs. This lack of clarity for both others and the person themselves gives the impression of a free-chooser.
As this veil gets peeled back, we may receive an uncomfortable degree of knowledge about ourselves and others.
SeñorDingDong, thank you for your thoughts on this.
Let’s assume that a human is a biological system with various levers and buttons and that every human action is goal oriented, no matter how small of an action. In the interaction of two of these systems, both have a goal with the interaction (no matter how small or insignificant). Both systems knows that the other system has levers and buttons that can change that system into complying with each systems goal. A Is it then unreasonable to frame this and all other interactions between these two systems as attempts to manipulate the other system to achieve a specific goal?
Example. System A see System B in a nightclub. A think that B is a rather sassy system and wants its attention. A walk past B and try to get eye contact by looking intently at B. A knows (thinks) that staring is a lever to pull or a button to push to turn B’s head and get B’s attention. B notice A gaze and eye contact is established. A’s goal is achieved and done so by manipulating B’s system ever so slightly.
Now, as you pointed out, we do not maybe know for sure what cause a specific reaction but that does not mean that we do not want to achieve a specific reaction with our actions. The case of telling someone of a new toothpaste brand is no less of a manipulation attempt then a scammer trying to get someone to give them money under some false pretenses i.e. there is a goal and words are the means to achieve it. What is true or not does not matter.
Say that you want to be nice to your friends when talking about the brand new super good toothpaste they should try. Then your goal is to feel good about yourself and the means to achieve this is to use words (I assume it will not be under gun point, but that is another mean to achieve the same outcome) to manipulate your friends’ system into going to the supermarket and buying and trying that new toothpaste.
Would you mind explain more about what you mean with: “Day to day life suggests this is a useful concept, and that there is a meaningful distinction between being lied to and being given true information, just as there is between coercive-control and sad movies.”? For the sake of achieving a goal I cannot not see why this would matter. Placebo is a good example of this. If you are lied into believing that a sugar pill will cure cancer and it does, would you rather have had the truth about the pill?