Unless, of course, you know you suck at organising folks and are willing to sacrifice probability of a meetup to reduce the probability that your meetup is a totally embarrassing failure and discourages others from bothering to try in the future. Could happen. ;)
If you’re really that social-awkwardness-risk-averse, please keep it to yourself so as to avoid infecting others.
This was rude and not necessary.
I did suggest that I am or anyone else in particular is incapable of organising social occasions with strangers. Nor did I suggest that the person avoiding the risk must be doing so because of a personal aversion to social awkwardness. The consideration expressed is actually consistently p(desired event), allowing simple maximisations.
I actually like to give the “Tell, don’t ask!” exhortation myself—it is applicable in a wide range of social situations. It is usually a far more effective strategy for achieving a desired result in terms of human influence. It is definitely applicable in this case too, and If it hadn’t been said would have provided the link myself, in the same words, right before I added the necessary disclaimer.
Organising social events with strangers is not a trivial task. It may seem that way for many of us because we have the appropriate instincts for mind reading and have been training on related tasks since we were children. For some it is actually either extremely difficult or overwhelmingly stressful. In those cases, and many others, it is actually a wiser choice to simply express interest but leave the initiative to those who have already established the connections and routine.This is even more likely to be the case when there is a possibility that those who have previously organised the events will perceive an incursion into their social turf and passively sabotage you—another area that is less obvious how to navigate for some that others. (But also something that is less dangerous now that there are laws to stop the worst of ape social retributions.)
In conclusion: Tell, don’t ask (except for when you shouldn’t).
Er, sorry. I’m not sure how to say it better, though; perhaps I should unpack a bit.
This community is mostly made up of nerds, who as a class tend to consistently and expensively overestimate the embarrassment resulting from public failure. The community as a whole would be significantly better off if its members were on the whole bolder.
If a given person feels they’re unable to contribute to the boldness effort, then I respect their personal decision, but ask that at the least they refrain from encouraging others to be timid as well.
This community is mostly made up of nerds, who as a class tend to consistently and expensively overestimate the embarrassment resulting from public failure. The community as a whole would be significantly better off if its members were on the whole bolder.
I agree with this evaluation and the sentiment. I aggressively and consistently encourage boldness but like to do so from a position of accepting a realistic evaluation of how the how the world, and you in particular, work. This is in contrast to popular self-help enforcement of ‘positivism’ through denial. In particular I cannot endorse the shaming or negative labelling of those who don’t support a cookie-cutter prescription for what constitutes positive, practical action.
There is no discouragement of boldness here. This is about acknowledgement that circumstances are not the same for everyone and that boldness just isn’t the only factor in play. Boldness is the limiting factor here for some people—but there are others for whom the avoidance of social cowardness is just not the relevant consideration. I refuse to alienate or invalidate the experience of those for whom this kind of event management is an outright unhealthy choice.
EDIT: It occurs to me that this looks like I’m saying the point is a big deal. Rather than the intended expanded endorsement of an utterly trivial point. What is a little important is that I challenge slurs on my social confidence—which is a core component of my identity!
You in particular I would be surprised to learn lacked social confidence.
I’m having a hard time thinking of an actual case where someone genuinely should avoid managing such an event and might actually try to manage one if encouraged too much and/or insufficiently discouraged. So I guess it comes down to the empirical question.
I just don’t see the value in giving people excuses to be timid.
You in particular I would be surprised to learn lacked social confidence.
And if I convince everyone of that, including myself, then by practical definition I don’t. And that is the greatest benefit of boldness. Boldness, done safely and with appropriate stress management measures in place, can change who you are for the better. It worked for me.
I’m having a hard time thinking of an actual case where someone genuinely should avoid managing such an event and might actually try to manage one if encouraged too much and/or insufficiently discouraged. So I guess it comes down to the empirical question.
The question I ask is whether there is an actual case where someone genuinely should avoid managing such an event and does not actually try to manage one if encouraged too much but is negatively impacted by ongoing messages that all people ‘should’ do things which they personally should not do. I don’t want to make those individuals collateral damage of a censorship program for other folks who cannot function without denial and being mislead.
As well as empirical evaluation this position incorporates an ethical judgement with respect to whether a consequence of benefit to a majority justifies doing harm to a minority in this particular instance. That the intervention involves epistemic distortion does actually influence my evaluation here more than it would for some others. Willingness to make allowances for the non-typical also varies from person to person.
Ah, I hadn’t thought of that. I was imagining that it would be easy for shy people to ignore exhortations of boldness; in retrospect, I should have known better.
I can’t be sure, but my guess would have been that they would be more sensitive to such things. I associate ‘shyness’ with increased sensitivity to social stimulus.
When is there going to be another Less Wrong meeting? it seems like things dissipated over christmas. Looking forward to the next one.
Tell, don’t ask.
Unless, of course, you know you suck at organising folks and are willing to sacrifice probability of a meetup to reduce the probability that your meetup is a totally embarrassing failure and discourages others from bothering to try in the future. Could happen. ;)
If you’re really that social-awkwardness-risk-averse, please keep it to yourself so as to avoid infecting others.
This was rude and not necessary.
I did suggest that I am or anyone else in particular is incapable of organising social occasions with strangers. Nor did I suggest that the person avoiding the risk must be doing so because of a personal aversion to social awkwardness. The consideration expressed is actually consistently p(desired event), allowing simple maximisations.
I actually like to give the “Tell, don’t ask!” exhortation myself—it is applicable in a wide range of social situations. It is usually a far more effective strategy for achieving a desired result in terms of human influence. It is definitely applicable in this case too, and If it hadn’t been said would have provided the link myself, in the same words, right before I added the necessary disclaimer.
Organising social events with strangers is not a trivial task. It may seem that way for many of us because we have the appropriate instincts for mind reading and have been training on related tasks since we were children. For some it is actually either extremely difficult or overwhelmingly stressful. In those cases, and many others, it is actually a wiser choice to simply express interest but leave the initiative to those who have already established the connections and routine.This is even more likely to be the case when there is a possibility that those who have previously organised the events will perceive an incursion into their social turf and passively sabotage you—another area that is less obvious how to navigate for some that others. (But also something that is less dangerous now that there are laws to stop the worst of ape social retributions.)
In conclusion: Tell, don’t ask (except for when you shouldn’t).
Er, sorry. I’m not sure how to say it better, though; perhaps I should unpack a bit.
This community is mostly made up of nerds, who as a class tend to consistently and expensively overestimate the embarrassment resulting from public failure. The community as a whole would be significantly better off if its members were on the whole bolder.
If a given person feels they’re unable to contribute to the boldness effort, then I respect their personal decision, but ask that at the least they refrain from encouraging others to be timid as well.
I agree with this evaluation and the sentiment. I aggressively and consistently encourage boldness but like to do so from a position of accepting a realistic evaluation of how the how the world, and you in particular, work. This is in contrast to popular self-help enforcement of ‘positivism’ through denial. In particular I cannot endorse the shaming or negative labelling of those who don’t support a cookie-cutter prescription for what constitutes positive, practical action.
There is no discouragement of boldness here. This is about acknowledgement that circumstances are not the same for everyone and that boldness just isn’t the only factor in play. Boldness is the limiting factor here for some people—but there are others for whom the avoidance of social cowardness is just not the relevant consideration. I refuse to alienate or invalidate the experience of those for whom this kind of event management is an outright unhealthy choice.
EDIT: It occurs to me that this looks like I’m saying the point is a big deal. Rather than the intended expanded endorsement of an utterly trivial point. What is a little important is that I challenge slurs on my social confidence—which is a core component of my identity!
You in particular I would be surprised to learn lacked social confidence.
I’m having a hard time thinking of an actual case where someone genuinely should avoid managing such an event and might actually try to manage one if encouraged too much and/or insufficiently discouraged. So I guess it comes down to the empirical question.
I just don’t see the value in giving people excuses to be timid.
And if I convince everyone of that, including myself, then by practical definition I don’t. And that is the greatest benefit of boldness. Boldness, done safely and with appropriate stress management measures in place, can change who you are for the better. It worked for me.
The question I ask is whether there is an actual case where someone genuinely should avoid managing such an event and does not actually try to manage one if encouraged too much but is negatively impacted by ongoing messages that all people ‘should’ do things which they personally should not do. I don’t want to make those individuals collateral damage of a censorship program for other folks who cannot function without denial and being mislead.
As well as empirical evaluation this position incorporates an ethical judgement with respect to whether a consequence of benefit to a majority justifies doing harm to a minority in this particular instance. That the intervention involves epistemic distortion does actually influence my evaluation here more than it would for some others. Willingness to make allowances for the non-typical also varies from person to person.
Ah, I hadn’t thought of that. I was imagining that it would be easy for shy people to ignore exhortations of boldness; in retrospect, I should have known better.
I can’t be sure, but my guess would have been that they would be more sensitive to such things. I associate ‘shyness’ with increased sensitivity to social stimulus.