If there isn’t enough incentive for others to cooperate with you, don’t get upset for them if they defect (or “hit the neutral button.”) BUT maybe try to create a coordination mechanism so that there is enough incentive.
It seems like “getting upset” is often a pretty effective way of creating exactly the kind of incentive that leads to cooperation. I am reminded of the recent discussion on investing in the commons, where introducing a way to punish defectors greatly increased total wealth. Generalizing that to more everyday scenarios, it seems that being angry at someone is often (though definitely not always, and probably not in the majority of cases) a way to align incentives better.
(Note: I am not arguing in favor of people getting more angry more often, just saying that not getting angry doesn’t seem like a core aspect of the “robust agent” concept that Raemon is trying to point at here)
The world is full of people who get upset at you for not living up to the norms they prefer. There are, in fact, so many people who will get upset for so many contradictory norms that it just doesn’t make much sense to try to live up to them all, and you shouldn’t be that surprised that it doesn’t work.
The motivating examples were something like “Bob gets upset at people for doing thing X. A little while later, people are still doing thing X. Bob gets upset again. Repeat a couple times. Eventually it (should, according to me) become clear that a) getting upset isn’t having the desired effect, or at most is producing the effect of “superficially avoid behavior X when Bob is around”. And meanwhile, getting upset is sort of emotionally exhausting and the cost doesn’t seem worth it.”
I do agree that “get upset” (or more accurately “perform upset-ness”) works reasonably well as localized strategy, and can scale up a bit if you can rally more people to get upset on your behalf. But the post was motivated by people who seemed to get upset… unreflectively?
(I updated the wording a bit but am not quite happy with it. I do think the underlying point was fairly core to the robust agent thing: you want policies for achieving your goals that actually work. “Getting upset in situation X” might be a good policy, but if you’re enacting it as an adaption-executor rather than as a considered policy, it may not actually be adaptive in your circumstance)
Eventually it (should, according to me) become clear that a) getting upset isn’t having the desired effect, or at most is producing the effect of “superficially avoid behavior X when Bob is around”.
Or “avoid Bob”, “drop Bob as a friend”, “leave Bob out of anything new”, etc. What, if anything, becomes clear to Bob or to those he gets angry with is very underdetermined.
It seems like “getting upset” is often a pretty effective way of creating exactly the kind of incentive that leads to cooperation. I am reminded of the recent discussion on investing in the commons, where introducing a way to punish defectors greatly increased total wealth. Generalizing that to more everyday scenarios, it seems that being angry at someone is often (though definitely not always, and probably not in the majority of cases) a way to align incentives better.
(Note: I am not arguing in favor of people getting more angry more often, just saying that not getting angry doesn’t seem like a core aspect of the “robust agent” concept that Raemon is trying to point at here)
Ah. The thing I was trying to point at here was the “Be Nice, At Least Until You Can Coordinate Meanness” thing.
The world is full of people who get upset at you for not living up to the norms they prefer. There are, in fact, so many people who will get upset for so many contradictory norms that it just doesn’t make much sense to try to live up to them all, and you shouldn’t be that surprised that it doesn’t work.
The motivating examples were something like “Bob gets upset at people for doing thing X. A little while later, people are still doing thing X. Bob gets upset again. Repeat a couple times. Eventually it (should, according to me) become clear that a) getting upset isn’t having the desired effect, or at most is producing the effect of “superficially avoid behavior X when Bob is around”. And meanwhile, getting upset is sort of emotionally exhausting and the cost doesn’t seem worth it.”
I do agree that “get upset” (or more accurately “perform upset-ness”) works reasonably well as localized strategy, and can scale up a bit if you can rally more people to get upset on your behalf. But the post was motivated by people who seemed to get upset… unreflectively?
(I updated the wording a bit but am not quite happy with it. I do think the underlying point was fairly core to the robust agent thing: you want policies for achieving your goals that actually work. “Getting upset in situation X” might be a good policy, but if you’re enacting it as an adaption-executor rather than as a considered policy, it may not actually be adaptive in your circumstance)
Or “avoid Bob”, “drop Bob as a friend”, “leave Bob out of anything new”, etc. What, if anything, becomes clear to Bob or to those he gets angry with is very underdetermined.