Obviously I think it was correct for Solstice to win the overton-window fight (otherwise I’d have made very different life choices)
And, to be clear, I do not have any meta-objection to this (which is to say, my object-level opinion is the same as it ever was—I think this choice that rationalist communities collectively made was a poor one—but I have no principled objection to “we, as a community, decided to go a certain way, and if some folks don’t care for that, that’s unfortunate, but this is what we’re doing”).
But, yes, pretending that that’s not what happened—pretending that actually, the dissenters just turned out to be obviously silly and their objections were groundless and now they’ve quietly accepted how wrong they were all along, now that their wrongness is plain for all to see—is not acceptable at all.
I do think it’s also important to note that there are also people who were annoyed or worried initially, went to Solstice, and after a couple years updated to “yeah this isn’t bad in the way I initially thought it was.”
Indeed. If I may ask—do you know of any people who initially were in favor / cautiously optimistic / ambivalent / etc., but later updated to “actually this is bad”?
In both cases, the number of people who “still don’t like it” and “have updated to ‘it’s fine’” that I have concretely observed are less than 10, so I’m hesitant to make many generalizations
I, too, have only a handful of data points, so indeed I don’t propose to generalize, but I do want to note that you are rather less likely to observe “still don’t like it” than you are to observe “actually this is fine”, conditional on the existence of each, simply because you’re less likely to interact with people of the latter persuasion!
I have not heard anyone update starting from “this was okay” and then later “this was bad” direction. (If anyone happens to be reading along and had that experience this is as good a time as any to speak up)
(My recollection of your own experience, after coming to a Solstice once, was that you said something afterwards like “okay, yeah that was still cringey but less cringey than I thought. I *am* worried about the use of the Litany of Tarski.” [which is no longer part of Solstice].
It seems like as good a time as any to check if that memory of mine is accurate).
I remember having that conversation, but not the details of what I said. Your version sounds plausible, based on my overall recollection of the event.
(I suppose I should note, for anyone reading this, that the Solstice event I attended was one of the very early ones. It was held at a group house here in Brooklyn, and done as part of a more general gathering; this was before the Solstice celebration as such was made into a separate event, with a rented event space, etc. That is the only Solstice celebration I have attended, so I have no comment on what those that’ve been held since then are like.)
And, to be clear, I do not have any meta-objection to this (which is to say, my object-level opinion is the same as it ever was—I think this choice that rationalist communities collectively made was a poor one—but I have no principled objection to “we, as a community, decided to go a certain way, and if some folks don’t care for that, that’s unfortunate, but this is what we’re doing”).
But, yes, pretending that that’s not what happened—pretending that actually, the dissenters just turned out to be obviously silly and their objections were groundless and now they’ve quietly accepted how wrong they were all along, now that their wrongness is plain for all to see—is not acceptable at all.
Indeed. If I may ask—do you know of any people who initially were in favor / cautiously optimistic / ambivalent / etc., but later updated to “actually this is bad”?
I, too, have only a handful of data points, so indeed I don’t propose to generalize, but I do want to note that you are rather less likely to observe “still don’t like it” than you are to observe “actually this is fine”, conditional on the existence of each, simply because you’re less likely to interact with people of the latter persuasion!
I have not heard anyone update starting from “this was okay” and then later “this was bad” direction. (If anyone happens to be reading along and had that experience this is as good a time as any to speak up)
(My recollection of your own experience, after coming to a Solstice once, was that you said something afterwards like “okay, yeah that was still cringey but less cringey than I thought. I *am* worried about the use of the Litany of Tarski.” [which is no longer part of Solstice].
It seems like as good a time as any to check if that memory of mine is accurate).
I remember having that conversation, but not the details of what I said. Your version sounds plausible, based on my overall recollection of the event.
(I suppose I should note, for anyone reading this, that the Solstice event I attended was one of the very early ones. It was held at a group house here in Brooklyn, and done as part of a more general gathering; this was before the Solstice celebration as such was made into a separate event, with a rented event space, etc. That is the only Solstice celebration I have attended, so I have no comment on what those that’ve been held since then are like.)