I think I’d also be more compelled by this argument if I was more sold on warnings being the sort of thing that works in practice.
Like… (to take a recent example) if I’m walking by a whiteboard in rosegarden inn, and two people are like “hey Nate can you weigh in on this object-level question”, I don’t… really believe that saying “first, be warned that talking techincal things with me can leave you exposed to unshielded negative-valence emotions (frustration, despair, …), which some people find pretty crappy; do you still want me to weigh in?” actually does much. I am skeptical that people say “nope” to that in practice.
I think there are several critical issues with your behavior, but I think the most urgent is that people often don’t know what they’re getting into. People have a right to make informed decisions and to not have large, unexpected costs shunted onto them.
It’s true that no one has to talk with you. But it’s often not true that people know what they’re getting into. I spoke out publicly because I encountered a pattern, among my friends and colleagues, of people taking large and unexpected emotional damage from interacting with you.
If our July interaction had been an isolated incident, I still would have been quite upset with you, but I would not have been outraged.
If the pattern I encountered were more like “a bunch of people report high costs imposed by Nate, but basically in the ways they expected”, I’d be somewhat less outraged.[1] If people can accurately predict the costs and make informed decisions, then people who don’t mind (like Vivek or Jeremy) can reap the benefits of interacting with you, and the people who would be particularly hurt can avoid you.
If your warnings are not preventing this pattern of unexpected hurt, then you need to do better. You need to inform people to the point that they know what distribution they’re sampling from. If people know, I’m confident that they will start saying “no.” I probably would have said “no thanks” (or at least ducked out sooner and taken less damage), and Kurt would have said “no” as well.
If you don’t inform people to a sufficient extent, the community should (and, I think, will) hold you accountable for the unexpected costs you impose on others.
I would still be disturbed and uneasy for the reasons Jacob Steinhardt mentioned, including “In the face of real consequences, I think that Nate would better regulate his emotions and impose far fewer costs on people he interacts with.”
(I don’t know who strong disagree-voted the parent comment, but I’m interested in hearing what the disagreement is. I currently think the comment is straightforwardly correct and important.)
The 9-karma disagree-vote is mine. (Surprise!) I thought about writing a comment, and then thought, “Nah, I don’t feel like getting involved with this one; I’ll just leave a quick disagree-vote”, but if you’re actively soliciting, I’ll write the comment.
I’m wary of the consequences of trying to institute social norms to protect people from subjective emotional damage, because I think “the cure is worse than the disease.” I’d rather develop a thick skin and take responsibility for my own emotions (even though it hurts when some people are mean), because I fear that the alternative is (speaking uncharitably) a dystopia of psychological warfare masquerading as kindness in which people compete to shut down the expression of perspectives they don’t like by motivatedly getting (subjectively sincerely) offended.
Technically, I don’t disagree with “people should know what they’re getting into” being a desirable goal (all other things being equal), but I think it should be applied symmetrically, and it makes sense for me to strong-disagree-vote a comment that I don’t think is applying it symmetrically: it’s not fair if “fighty” people need to to make lengthy disclaimers about how their bluntness might hurt someone’s feelings (which is true), but “cooperative” people don’t need to make lengthy disclaimers about how their tone-policing might silence someone’s perspective (which is also true).
I don’t know Nate very well. There was an incident on Twitter and Less Wrong the other year where I got offended at how glib and smug he was being, despite how wrong he was about the philosophy of dolphins. But in retrospect, I think I was wrong to get offended. (I got downvoted to oblivion, and I deserved it.) I wish I had kept my cool—not because I personally approve of the communication style Nate was using, but because I think it was bad for my soul and the world to let myself get distracted by mere style when I could have shrugged it off and stayed focused on the substance.
I think there are several critical issues with your behavior, but I think the most urgent is that people often don’t know what they’re getting into. People have a right to make informed decisions and to not have large, unexpected costs shunted onto them.
It’s true that no one has to talk with you. But it’s often not true that people know what they’re getting into. I spoke out publicly because I encountered a pattern, among my friends and colleagues, of people taking large and unexpected emotional damage from interacting with you.
If our July interaction had been an isolated incident, I still would have been quite upset with you, but I would not have been outraged.
If the pattern I encountered were more like “a bunch of people report high costs imposed by Nate, but basically in the ways they expected”, I’d be somewhat less outraged.[1] If people can accurately predict the costs and make informed decisions, then people who don’t mind (like Vivek or Jeremy) can reap the benefits of interacting with you, and the people who would be particularly hurt can avoid you.
If your warnings are not preventing this pattern of unexpected hurt, then you need to do better. You need to inform people to the point that they know what distribution they’re sampling from. If people know, I’m confident that they will start saying “no.” I probably would have said “no thanks” (or at least ducked out sooner and taken less damage), and Kurt would have said “no” as well.
If you don’t inform people to a sufficient extent, the community should (and, I think, will) hold you accountable for the unexpected costs you impose on others.
I would still be disturbed and uneasy for the reasons Jacob Steinhardt mentioned, including “In the face of real consequences, I think that Nate would better regulate his emotions and impose far fewer costs on people he interacts with.”
(I don’t know who strong disagree-voted the parent comment, but I’m interested in hearing what the disagreement is. I currently think the comment is straightforwardly correct and important.)
The 9-karma disagree-vote is mine. (Surprise!) I thought about writing a comment, and then thought, “Nah, I don’t feel like getting involved with this one; I’ll just leave a quick disagree-vote”, but if you’re actively soliciting, I’ll write the comment.
I’m wary of the consequences of trying to institute social norms to protect people from subjective emotional damage, because I think “the cure is worse than the disease.” I’d rather develop a thick skin and take responsibility for my own emotions (even though it hurts when some people are mean), because I fear that the alternative is (speaking uncharitably) a dystopia of psychological warfare masquerading as kindness in which people compete to shut down the expression of perspectives they don’t like by motivatedly getting (subjectively sincerely) offended.
Technically, I don’t disagree with “people should know what they’re getting into” being a desirable goal (all other things being equal), but I think it should be applied symmetrically, and it makes sense for me to strong-disagree-vote a comment that I don’t think is applying it symmetrically: it’s not fair if “fighty” people need to to make lengthy disclaimers about how their bluntness might hurt someone’s feelings (which is true), but “cooperative” people don’t need to make lengthy disclaimers about how their tone-policing might silence someone’s perspective (which is also true).
I don’t know Nate very well. There was an incident on Twitter and Less Wrong the other year where I got offended at how glib and smug he was being, despite how wrong he was about the philosophy of dolphins. But in retrospect, I think I was wrong to get offended. (I got downvoted to oblivion, and I deserved it.) I wish I had kept my cool—not because I personally approve of the communication style Nate was using, but because I think it was bad for my soul and the world to let myself get distracted by mere style when I could have shrugged it off and stayed focused on the substance.