Except the thrive/survive dichotomy applies to conservatives and liberals in the classical sense, not the economic right and the economic left. And by that standard, libertarians are firmly in the liberal category, even if their right-wing economic views are more commonly associated with conservatives in modern times. Even the rhetoric that right-libertarians use to justify their economic policies is distinctly different from—and in some ways, diametrically opposed to—the rhetoric that conservatives use to justify the same or similar policies. Conservatives tend to focus a lot more on scarcity and have a very survival-of-the-fittest interpretation of capitalism, whereas the libertarian view of capitalism is centered more around the idea that a rising tide lifts all ships. (To use a MtG color wheel analogy, conservatives have a Green/Black view of capitalism, while libertarians have a Blue/Red view of capitalism.) That’s not to say that libertarians don’t recognize the value of competition, or that conservatives don’t care about economic growth and technological progress, but there’s certainly a huge difference in emphasis there.
I think the real reason there’s such a shortage of distinctly libertarian art is simply because libertarians are a fairly small group, and also fairly disorganized/decentralized, so they just don’t have the cultural influence that left-liberals or conservatives do. Although it’s also worth pointing out that a lot of mainstream media does have strong anti-authoritarian and individualist undertones that I would consider to be libertarian in nature, even if it wasn’t specifically created for the sake of promoting libertarianism.
The thirve/survive dichotomy quite clearly does apply to economic right and left, inasmuch as economic right is about creating better incentives (in its more humane manifestation) or survival of the fittest (in its less human manifestation) whereas economic left is about helping the poor. If you believe you have to survive, then there is no slack to help others, and free loaders endanger everyone. If you believe you can thrive, then you can afford to be generous. Where does it leave libertarians I don’t know (probably there are different kinds of libertarians), and it might be that indeed there are few libertarians artists just because there are few libertarians. But I think that the thrive/survive theory definitely does explain why most artists are left wing rather than right wing.
Most libertarians I know believe that a more ‘right-wing’ economic system will help the poor, along with everyone else. Libertarians generally don’t tend to worry about “freeloaders” the way conservatives do, which is why they mostly focus on government regulations and corporate welfare, while conservatives mostly focus on social welfare. When libertarians do take a stand against social welfare, it tends to be less about freeloading and more about welfare programs creating perverse incentives (e.g. discouraging people who want to work but would lose their benefits and be worse off if they did). Just look at the difference between libertarian and conservative arguments against the minimum wage. Conservatives will go on about how uneducated burger flippers don’t deserve $15, while libertarians will focus a lot more on the fact that increasing the minimum wage will just make it harder for people to find work and make poor people worse overall.
Libertarians largely fall on the ‘thrive’ side of the thrive/survive spectrum. They might be closer to the middle than the far-left redistributionists, but so are moderate center-left liberals. The only difference is, unlike the center-left crowd, they see government intervention as the main obstacle preventing people from thriving.
Most libertarians who support social welfare (often in some unconventional form, like negative income tax or the citizen’s dividend, but whatever) do so because they understand that people vary widely in their ability to sustain themselves via market work, and that providing people with a minimal standard of living regardless of such ability (which is really more about ‘surviving’ than ‘thriving’!) is a widely-shared value that ultimately has to be acknowledged. Conservatives tend to be skeptical about these claims in some way or another, but even libertarians don’t actually think that one can design a social welfare system which won’t deeply impact incentives and make people more likely to freeload.
FYI, I’m skeptical about people drawing conclusions about “most” in contexts like this. I do think there’s _something_ to the distinction you’re making but I when I see statements like the ones in this thread my immediate question is “are they basing this off large surveys of self identified libertarians and conservatives, or on ‘who I run into in my filter bubble?’” which I think are very different questions.
Sure, but my claims weren’t actually about libertarians and conservatives in general, only the fraction among them who support and oppose social insurance, respectively. It doesn’t actually take much formal evidence (that is, evidence that also reaches a high ‘admissibility’ standard—which ‘who I run into in my filter bubble?’ might not!) to show that sizeable such groups do exist, or to talk about their ideas.
Except the thrive/survive dichotomy applies to conservatives and liberals in the classical sense, not the economic right and the economic left. And by that standard, libertarians are firmly in the liberal category, even if their right-wing economic views are more commonly associated with conservatives in modern times. Even the rhetoric that right-libertarians use to justify their economic policies is distinctly different from—and in some ways, diametrically opposed to—the rhetoric that conservatives use to justify the same or similar policies. Conservatives tend to focus a lot more on scarcity and have a very survival-of-the-fittest interpretation of capitalism, whereas the libertarian view of capitalism is centered more around the idea that a rising tide lifts all ships. (To use a MtG color wheel analogy, conservatives have a Green/Black view of capitalism, while libertarians have a Blue/Red view of capitalism.) That’s not to say that libertarians don’t recognize the value of competition, or that conservatives don’t care about economic growth and technological progress, but there’s certainly a huge difference in emphasis there.
I think the real reason there’s such a shortage of distinctly libertarian art is simply because libertarians are a fairly small group, and also fairly disorganized/decentralized, so they just don’t have the cultural influence that left-liberals or conservatives do. Although it’s also worth pointing out that a lot of mainstream media does have strong anti-authoritarian and individualist undertones that I would consider to be libertarian in nature, even if it wasn’t specifically created for the sake of promoting libertarianism.
The thirve/survive dichotomy quite clearly does apply to economic right and left, inasmuch as economic right is about creating better incentives (in its more humane manifestation) or survival of the fittest (in its less human manifestation) whereas economic left is about helping the poor. If you believe you have to survive, then there is no slack to help others, and free loaders endanger everyone. If you believe you can thrive, then you can afford to be generous. Where does it leave libertarians I don’t know (probably there are different kinds of libertarians), and it might be that indeed there are few libertarians artists just because there are few libertarians. But I think that the thrive/survive theory definitely does explain why most artists are left wing rather than right wing.
Most libertarians I know believe that a more ‘right-wing’ economic system will help the poor, along with everyone else. Libertarians generally don’t tend to worry about “freeloaders” the way conservatives do, which is why they mostly focus on government regulations and corporate welfare, while conservatives mostly focus on social welfare. When libertarians do take a stand against social welfare, it tends to be less about freeloading and more about welfare programs creating perverse incentives (e.g. discouraging people who want to work but would lose their benefits and be worse off if they did). Just look at the difference between libertarian and conservative arguments against the minimum wage. Conservatives will go on about how uneducated burger flippers don’t deserve $15, while libertarians will focus a lot more on the fact that increasing the minimum wage will just make it harder for people to find work and make poor people worse overall.
Libertarians largely fall on the ‘thrive’ side of the thrive/survive spectrum. They might be closer to the middle than the far-left redistributionists, but so are moderate center-left liberals. The only difference is, unlike the center-left crowd, they see government intervention as the main obstacle preventing people from thriving.
Most libertarians who support social welfare (often in some unconventional form, like negative income tax or the citizen’s dividend, but whatever) do so because they understand that people vary widely in their ability to sustain themselves via market work, and that providing people with a minimal standard of living regardless of such ability (which is really more about ‘surviving’ than ‘thriving’!) is a widely-shared value that ultimately has to be acknowledged. Conservatives tend to be skeptical about these claims in some way or another, but even libertarians don’t actually think that one can design a social welfare system which won’t deeply impact incentives and make people more likely to freeload.
FYI, I’m skeptical about people drawing conclusions about “most” in contexts like this. I do think there’s _something_ to the distinction you’re making but I when I see statements like the ones in this thread my immediate question is “are they basing this off large surveys of self identified libertarians and conservatives, or on ‘who I run into in my filter bubble?’” which I think are very different questions.
Sure, but my claims weren’t actually about libertarians and conservatives in general, only the fraction among them who support and oppose social insurance, respectively. It doesn’t actually take much formal evidence (that is, evidence that also reaches a high ‘admissibility’ standard—which ‘who I run into in my filter bubble?’ might not!) to show that sizeable such groups do exist, or to talk about their ideas.