Unreal

Karma: 2,738

Unreal 27 Feb 2024 20:08 UTC
1 point
0
on: CFAR Takeaways: Andrew Critch
Rationality seems to be missing an entire curriculum on “Eros” or True Desire.
I got this curriculum from other trainings, though. There are places where it’s hugely emphasized and well-taught.
I think maybe Rationality should be more open to sending people to different places for different trainings and stop trying to do everything on its own terms.
It has been way better for me to learn how to enter/exit different frames and worldviews than to try to make everything fit into one worldview / frame. I think some Rationalists believe everything is supposed to fit into one frame, but Frames != The Truth.
The world is extremely complex, and if we want to be good at meeting the world, we should be able to pick up and drop frames as needed, at will.
Anyway, there are three main curricula:
1. Eros (Embodied Desire)
2. Intelligence (Rationality)
3. Wisdom (Awakening)
Maybe you guys should work on 2, but I don’t think you are advantaged at 1 or 3. But you could give intros to 1 and 3. CFAR opened me up by introducing me to Focusing and Circling, but I took non-rationalist trainings for both of those. As well as many other things that ended up being important.

Unreal 31 Dec 2023 0:17 UTC
9 points
−14
on: If Clarity Seems Like Death to Them
I was bouncing around LessWrong and ran into this. I started reading it as though it were a normal post, but then I slowly realized …
I think according to typical LessWrong norms, it would be appropriate to try to engage you on the object level claims or talk about the meta-presentation as though you and I were trying to collaborate on figuring things out and how to communicate things.
But according to my personal norms and integrity, if I detect that something is actually quite off (like alarm bells going) then it would be kind of sick to ignore that, and we should actually treat this like a triage situation. Or at least a call to some kind of intervention. And it would be sick to treat this like everything is normal, and that you are sane, and I am sane, and we’re just chatting about stuff and oh isn’t the weather nice today.
LessWrong is the wrong place for this to happen. This kind of “prioritization” sanity does not flourish here.
Not-sane people get stuck on LessWrong in order to stay not-sane because LW actually reinforces a kind of mental unwellness and does not provide good escape routes.
If you’re going to write stuff on LW, it might be better to write a journal about what the various personal, lifestyle interventions you are making to get out of the personal, unwell hole you are in. A kind of way to track your progress, get accountability, and celebrate wins.

Unreal 30 Dec 2023 23:03 UTC
4 points
4
in reply to: Valentine’s comment on: Here’s the exit.
Musings:
COVID was one of the MMA-style arenas for different egregores to see which might come out ‘on top’ in an epistemically unfriendly environment.
I have a lot of opinions on this that are more controversial than I’m willing to go into right now. But I wonder what else will work as one of these “testing arenas.”

Unreal 21 Nov 2023 20:45 UTC
3 points
0
in reply to: faul_sname’s comment on: Vote on worthwhile OpenAI topics to discuss
I don’t interpret that statement in the same way.
You interpreted it as ‘lied to the board about something material’. But to me, it also might mean ‘wasn’t forthcoming enough for us to trust him’ or ‘speaks in misleading ways (but not necessarily on purpose)’ or it might even just be somewhat coded language for ‘difficult to work with + we’re tired of trying to work with him’.
I don’t know why you latch onto the interpretation that he definitely lied about something specific.

Unreal 21 Nov 2023 16:57 UTC
13 points
0
on: Vote on worthwhile OpenAI topics to discuss
I was asked to clarify my position about why I voted ‘disagree’ with “I assign >50% to this claim: The board should be straightforward with its employees about why they fired the CEO.”
I’m putting a maybe-unjustified high amount of trust in all the people involved, and from that, my prior is very high on “for some reason, it would be really bad, inappropriate, or wrong to discuss this in a public way.” And given that OpenAI has ~800 employees, telling them would basically count as a ‘public’ announcement. (I would update significantly on the claim if it was only a select group of trusted employees, rather than all of them.)
To me, people seem too-biased in the direction of “this info should be public”—maybe with the assumption that “well I am personally trustworthy, and I want to know, and in fact, I should know in order to be able to assess the situation for myself.” Or maybe with the assumption that the ‘public’ is good for keeping people accountable and ethical. Meaning that informing the public would be net helpful.
I am maybe biased in the direction of: The general public overestimates its own trustworthiness and ability to evaluate complex situations, especially without most of the relevant context.
My overall experience is that the involvement of the public makes situations worse, as a general rule.
And I think the public also overestimates their own helpfulness, post-hoc. So when things are handled in a public way, the public assesses their role in a positive light, but they rarely have ANY way to judge the counterfactual. And in fact, I basically NEVER see them even ACKNOWLEDGE the counterfactual. Which makes sense because that counterfactual is almost beyond-imagining. The public doesn’t have ANY of the relevant information that would make it possible to evaluate the counterfactual.
So in the end, they just default to believing that it had to play out in the way it did, and that the public’s involvement was either inevitable or good. And I do not understand where this assessment comes from, other than availability bias?
The involvement of the public, in my view, incentivizes more dishonesty, hiding, and various forms of deception. Because the public is usually NOT in a position to judge complex situations and lack much of the relevant context (and also aren’t particularly clear about ethics, often, IMO), so people who ARE extremely thoughtful, ethically minded, high-integrity, etc. are often put in very awkward binds when it comes to trying to interface with the public. And so I believe it’s better for the public not to be involved if they don’t have to be.
I am a strong proponent of keeping things close to the chest and keeping things within more trusted, high-context, in-person circles. And to avoid online involvement as much as possible for highly complex, high-touch situations. Does this mean OpenAI should keep it purely internal? No they should have outside advisors etc. Does this mean no employees should know what’s going on? No, some of them should—the ones who are high-level, responsible, and trustworthy, and they can then share what needs to be shared with the people under them.
Maybe some people believe that all ~800 employees deserve to know why their CEO was fired. Like, as a courtesy or general good policy or something. I think it depends on the actual reason. I can envision certain reasons that don’t need to be shared, and I can envision reasons that ought to be shared.
I can envision situations where sharing the reasons could potentially damage AI Safety efforts in the future. Or disable similar groups from being able to make really difficult but ethically sound choices—such as shutting down an entire company. I do not want to disable groups from being able to make extremely unpopular choices that ARE, in fact, the right thing to do.
“Well if it’s the right thing to do, we, the public, would understand and not retaliate against those decision-makers or generally cause havoc” is a terrible assumption, in my view.
I am interested in brainstorming, developing, and setting up really strong and effective accountability structures for orgs like OpenAI, and I do not believe most of those effective structures will include ‘keep the public informed’ as a policy. More often the opposite.

Unreal 21 Nov 2023 3:06 UTC
11 points
0
in reply to: Ben Pace’s comment on: Vote on worthwhile OpenAI topics to discuss
Media & Twitter reactions to OpenAI developments were largely unhelpful, specious, or net-negative for overall discourse around AI and AI Safety. We should reflect on how we can do better in the future and possibly even consider how to restructure media/Twitter/etc to lessen the issues going forward.

Unreal 21 Nov 2023 3:01 UTC
14 points
0
in reply to: Ben Pace’s comment on: Vote on worthwhile OpenAI topics to discuss
The OpenAI Charter, if fully & faithfully followed and effectively stood behind, including possibly shuttering the whole project down if it came down to it, would prevent OpenAI from being a major contributor to AI x-risk. In other words, as long as people actually followed this particular Charter to the letter, it is sufficient for curtailing AI risk, at least from this one org.

Unreal 21 Nov 2023 2:41 UTC
17 points
0
in reply to: Ben Pace’s comment on: Vote on worthwhile OpenAI topics to discuss
The partnership between Microsoft and OpenAI is a net negative for AI safety. And: What can we do about that?

Unreal 21 Nov 2023 2:40 UTC
58 points
0
in reply to: Ben Pace’s comment on: Vote on worthwhile OpenAI topics to discuss
We should consider other accountability structures than the one OpenAI tried (i.e. the non-profit / BoD). Also: What should they be?

Unreal 19 Oct 2023 17:39 UTC
2 points
0
in reply to: Elizabeth’s comment on: Dishonorable Gossip and Going Crazy
I would never have put it as either of these, but the second one is closer.
For me personally, I try to always have an internal sense of my inner motivation before/during doing things. I don’t expect most people do, but I’ve developed this as a practice, and I am guessing most people can, with some effort or practice.
I can pretty much generally tell whether my motivation has these qualities: wanting to avoid, wanting to get away with something, craving a sensation, intention to deceive or hide, etc. And when it comes to speech actions, this includes things like “I’m just saying something to say something” or “I just said something off/false/inauthentic” or “I didn’t quite mean what I just said or am saying”.
Although, the motivations to really look out for are like “I want someone else to hurt” or “I want to hurt myself” or “I hate” or “I’m doing this out of fear” or “I covet” or “I feel entitled to this / they don’t deserve this” or a whole host of things that tend to hide from our conscious minds. Or in IFS terms, we can get ‘blended’ with these without realizing we’re blended, and then act out of them.
Sometimes, I could be in the middle of asking a question and notice that the initial motivation for asking it wasn’t noble or clean, and then by the end of asking the question, I change my inner resolve or motive to be something more noble and clean. This is NOT some kind of verbal sentence like going from “I wanted to just gossip” to “Now I want to do what I can to help.” It does not work like that. It’s more like changing a martial arts stance. And then I am more properly balanced and landed on my feet, ready to engage more appropriately in the conversation.
What does it mean to take personal responsibility?
I mean, for one example, if I later find out something I did caused harm, I would try to ‘take responsibility’ for that thing in some way. That can include a whole host of possible actions, including just resolving not to do that in the future. Or apologizing. Or fixing a broken thing.
And for another thing, I try to realize that my actions have consequences and that it’s my responsibility to improve my actions. Including getting more clear on the true motives behind my actions. And learning how to do more wholesome actions and fewer unwholesome actions, over time.
I almost never use a calculating frame to try to think about this. I think that’s inadvisable and can drive people onto a dark or deluded path 😅

Unreal 18 Oct 2023 23:08 UTC
2 points
0
in reply to: Elizabeth’s comment on: Dishonorable Gossip and Going Crazy
I’m fine with drilling deeper but I currently don’t know where your confusion is.
I assume we exist in different frames, but it’s hard for me to locate your assumptions.
I don’t like meandering in a disagreement without very specific examples to work with. So maybe this is as far as it is reasonable to go for now.

Unreal 16 Oct 2023 4:50 UTC
4 points
0
in reply to: Elizabeth’s comment on: Dishonorable Gossip and Going Crazy
Hm, neither of the motives I named include any specific concern for the person. Or any specific concern at all. Although I do think having a specific concern is a good bonus? Somehow you interpreted what I said as though there needs to be specific concerns.
RE: The bullet point on compassion… maybe just strike that bullet point. It doesn’t really affect the rest of the points.
It’s good if people ultimately use their models to help themselves and others, but I think it’s bad to make specific questions or models justify their usefulness before they can be asked.
I think I get what you’re getting at. And I feel in agreement with this sentiment. I don’t want well-intentioned people to hamstring themselves.
I certainly am not claiming ppl should make a model justify its usefulness in a specific way.
I’m more saying ppl should be responsible for their info-gathering and treat that with a certain weight. Like a moral responsibility comes with information. So they shouldn’t be cavalier about it.… but especially they should not delude themselves into believing they have good intentions for info when they do not.
And so to casually ask about Alice’s sanity, without taking responsibility for the impact of speech actions and failing to acknowledge the potential damage to relationships (Alice’s or others), is irresponsible. Even if Alice never hears about this exchange, it nonetheless can cause a bunch of damage, and a person should speak about these with eyes open, about that.

Unreal 15 Oct 2023 3:48 UTC
4 points
0
in reply to: Ben Pace’s comment on: Dishonorable Gossip and Going Crazy
Oh, okay, I found that a confusing way to communicate that? But thanks for clarifying. I will update my comment so that it doesn’t make you sound like you did something very dismissive.
I feel embarrassed by this misinterpretation, and the implied state of mind I was in. But I believe it is an honest reflection about something in my state of mind, around this subject. Sigh.

Unreal 15 Oct 2023 3:32 UTC
7 points
0
in reply to: Elizabeth’s comment on: Dishonorable Gossip and Going Crazy
But I think it’s pretty important that people be able to do these kind of checks, for the purpose of updating their world model, without needing to fully boot up personal caring modules as if you were a friend they had an obligation to take care of. There are wholesome generators that would lead to this kind of conversation, and having this kind of conversation is useful to a bunch of wholesome goals.
There is a chance we don’t have a disagreement, and there is a chance we do.
In brief, to see if there’s a crux anywhere in here:
- Don’t need ppl to boot up ‘care as a friend’ module.
- Do believe compassion should be the motivation behind these conversations, even if not friends, where compassion = treats people as real and relationships as real.
- So it matters if the convo is like (A) “I care about the world, and doing good in the world, and knowing about Renshin’s sanity is about that, at the base. I will use this information for good, not for evil.” Ideally the info is relevant to something they’re responsible for, so that it’s somewhat plausible the info would be useful and beneficial.
- Versus (B) “I’m just idly curious about it, but I don’t need to know and if it required real effort to know, I wouldn’t bother. It doesn’t help me or anyone to know it. I just want to eat it like I crave a potato chip. I want satisfaction, stimulation, or to feel ‘I’m being productive’ even if it’s not truly so, and I am entitled to feel that just b/c I want to. I might use the info in a harmful way later, but I don’t care. I am not really responsible for info I take in or how I use info.”
- And I personally think the whole endeavor of modeling the world should be for the (A) motive and not the (B) motive, and that taking in any-and-all information isn’t, like, neutral or net-positive by default. People should endeavor to use their intelligence, their models, and their knowledge for good, not for evil or selfish gain or to feed an addiction to feeling a certain way.
- I used a lot of ‘should’ but that doesn’t mean I think people should be punished for going against a ‘should’. It’s more like healthy cultures, imo, reinforce such norms, and unhealthy cultures fail to see or acknowledge the difference between the two sets of actions.

Unreal 15 Oct 2023 3:13 UTC
9 points
0
in reply to: Unreal’s comment on: Dishonorable Gossip and Going Crazy
I had written a longer comment, illustrating how Oliver was basically committing the thing that I was complaining about and why this is frustrating.
The shorter version:
His first paragraph is a strawman. I never said ‘take me at my word’ or anything close. And all previous statements from me and knowing anything about my stances would point to this being something I would never say, so this seems weirdly disingenuous.
His second paragraph is weirdly flimsy, implying that ppl are mostly using the literal words out of people’s mouths to determine whether they’re lying (either to others or to themselves). I would be surprised if Oliver would actually find Alice and Bob both saying “trust me i’m fine” would be ‘totally flat’ data, given he probably has to discern deception on a regular basis.
Also I’m not exactly the ‘trust me i’m fine’ type, and anyone who knows me would know that about me, if they bothered trying to remember. I have both the skill of introspection and the character trait of frankness. I would reveal plenty about my motives, aliefs, the crazier parts of me, etc. So paragraph 2 sounds like a flimsy excuse to be avoidant?
But the IMPORTANT thing is… I don’t want to argue. I wasn’t interested in that. I was hoping for something closer to perspective-taking, reconciliation, or reaching more clarity about our relational status. But I get that I was sounding argumentative. I was being openly frustrated and directing that in your general direction. Apologies for creating that tension.

Unreal 15 Oct 2023 2:59 UTC
2 points
−2
in reply to: habryka’s comment on: Dishonorable Gossip and Going Crazy
The ‘endless list’ comment wasn’t about you, it was a more ‘general you’. Sorry that wasn’t clear. I edited stuff out and then that became unclear.
I mostly wanted to point at something frustrating for me, in the hopes that you or others would, like, get something about my experience here. To show how trapped this process is, on my end.
I don’t need you to fix it for me. I don’t need you to change.
I don’t need you to take me for my word. You are welcome to write me off, it’s your choice.
I just wanted to show how I am and why.

Unreal 15 Oct 2023 2:05 UTC
7 points
2
in reply to: Unreal’s comment on: Dishonorable Gossip and Going Crazy
FTR, the reason I am engaging with LW at all, like right now…
I’m not that interested in preserving or saving MAPLE’s shoddy reputation with you guys.
But I remain deeply devoted to the rationalists, in my heart. And I’m impacted by what you guys do. A bunch of my close friends are among you. And… you’re engaging in this world situation, which impacts all of us. And I care about this group of people in general. I really feel a kinship here I haven’t felt anywhere else. I can relax around this group in a way I can’t elsewhere.
I concern myself with your norms, your ethical conduct, etc. I wish well for you, and wish you to do right by yourselves, each other, and the world. The way you conduct yourselves has big implications. Big implications for impacts to me, my friends, the world, the future of the world.
You’ve chosen a certain level of global-scale responsibility, and so I’m going to treat you like you’re AT THAT LEVEL. The highest possible levels with a very high set of expectations. I hold myself AT LEAST to that high of a standard, to be honest, so it’s not hypocritical.
And you can write me off, totally. No problem.
But in my culture, friends concern themselves with their friends’ conduct. And I see you as friends. More or less.
If you write me off (and you know me personally), please do me the honor of letting me know. Ideally to my face. If you don’t feel you are gonna do that / don’t owe me that, then it would help me to know that also.

Unreal 15 Oct 2023 1:32 UTC
5 points
−13
in reply to: habryka’s comment on: Dishonorable Gossip and Going Crazy
so okay i’m actually annoyed by a thing… lemme see if i can articulate it.
1. I clearly have orders of magnitude more of the relevant evidence to ascertain a claim about MAPLE’s chances of producing ‘crazy’ ppl as you’ve defined—and much more even than most MAPLE people (both current and former).
2. Plus I have much of the relevant evidence about my own ability to discern the truth (which includes all the feedback I’ve received, the way people generally treat me, who takes me seriously, how often people seem to want to back away from me or tune me out when I start talking, etc etc).
3. A bunch of speculators, with relatively very little evidence about either, come out with very strong takes on both of the above, and don’t seem to want to take into account EITHER of the above facts, but instead find it super easy to dismiss any of the evidence that comes from people with the relevant data. Because of said ‘possibility they are crazy’.
And so there is almost no way out of this stupid box,; this does not incline me to try to share any evidence I have, and in general, reasonable people advise me against it. And I’m of the same opinion. It’s a trap to try.
It is both easy and an attractor for ppl to take anything I say and twist it into more evidence for THEIR biased or speculative ideas, and to take things I say as somehow further evidence that I’ve just been brainwashed. And then they take me less seriously. Which then further disinclines me to share any of my evidence. And so forth.
This is not a sane, productive, and working epistemic process? As far as I can tell?
Literally I was like “I have strong evidence” and Ben’s inclination was to say “strong evidence is easy to come by / is everywhere” and links to a relevant LW article, somehow dismissing everything I said previously and ~~might~~ ~~say in the future with one swoop. It effectively shut me down.~~
~~And I’m like.…~~
~~what is this “epistemic process” ya’ll are engaged in~~
[Edit: I misinterpreted Ben’s meaning. He was saying the opposite of what I thought he meant. Sorry, Ben. Another case of ‘better wrong than vague’ for me. 😅]
To me, it looks like [ya’ll] are using a potentially endless list of back-pocket heuristics and ‘points’ to justify what is convenient for you to continue believing. And it really seems like it has a strong emotional / feeling component that is not being owned.
[edit: you → ya’ll to make it clearer this isn’t about Oliver]
I sense a kind of self-protection or self-preservation thing. Like there’s zero chance of getting access to the true Alief in there. That’s why this is pointless for me.
Also, a lot of online talk about MAPLE is sooo far from realistic that it would, in fact, make me sound crazy to try to refute it. A totally nonsensical view is actually weirdly hard to counter, esp if the people aren’t being very intellectually honest AND the people don’t care enough to make an effort or stick through it all the way to the end.

Unreal 14 Oct 2023 15:56 UTC
5 points
0
in reply to: AnnaSalamon’s comment on: Dishonorable Gossip and Going Crazy
Anonymized paraphrase of a question someone asked about me (reported to me later, by the person who was being asked the question):
I have a prior about people who go off to monasteries sometimes going nuts, is Renshin nuts?
The person being asked responded “nah” and the question-asker was like “cool”
I think this sort of exchange might be somewhat commonplace or normal in the sphere.
I personally didn’t feel angry, offended, or sad to hear about this exchange, but I don’t feel the person asking the question was asking out of concern or care for me, as a person. But rather to get a quick update for their world model or something. And my “taste” about this is a “bad” taste. I don’t currently have time to elaborate but may later.

Dishonorable Gossip and Going Crazy

Ben Pace and Unreal

14 Oct 2023 4:00 UTC

28 points

31 comments23 min readLW link

Unreal

Dishon­or­able Gos­sip and Go­ing Crazy

Dishonorable Gossip and Going Crazy