Even if the world weren’t computable, any non-computable model would be useless to our AI, and the best it could do is a computable approximation.
Again, what distinguishes a “turing oracle” from a finite oracle with a bound well above the realizable size of a computer in the universe? They are indistinguishable hypotheses. Giving a turing complete AI a turing oracle doesn’t make it capable of understanding anything more than turing complete models. The turing-transcendant part must be an integral part of the AI for it to have non-turing-complete hypotheses about the universe, and I have no idea what a turing-transcendant language looks like and even less of an idea of how to program in it.
I don’t see how this changes the possible sense-data our AI could expect. Again, what’s the difference between infinitely many computations being performed in finite time and only the computations numbered up to a point too large for the AI to query being calculated?
If you can give me an example of a universe for which the closest turing machine model will not give indistinguishable sense-data to the AI, then perhaps this conversation can progress.
Well, for starters, an AI living in a universe where infinitely many computations can be performed in finite time can verify the responses a Turing oracle gives it. So it can determine that it lives in a universe with Turing oracles (in fact it can itself be a Turing oracle), which is not what an AI living in this universe would determine (as far as I know).
As mentioned below, we you’d need to make infinitely many queries to the Turing oracle. But even if you could, that wouldn’t make a difference.
Again, even if there was a module to do infinitely many computations, the code I wrote still couldn’t tell the difference between that being the case, and this module being a really good computable approximation of one. Again, it all comes back to the fact that I am programming my AI on a turing complete computer. Unless I somehow (personally) develop the skills to program trans-turing-complete computers, then whatever I program is only able to comprehend something that is turing complete. I am sitting down to write the AI right now, and so regardless of what I discover in the future, I can’t program my turing complete AI to understand anything beyond that. I’d have to program a trans-turing complete computer now, if I ever hoped for it to understand anything beyond turing completeness in the future.
Ah, I see. I think we were answering different questions. (I had this feeling earlier but couldn’t pin down why.) I read the original question as being something like “what kind of hypotheses should a hypothetical AI hypothetically entertain” whereas I think you read the original question as being more like “what kind of hypotheses can you currently program an AI to entertain.” Does this sound right?
I was reading a lesswrong post and I found this paragraph which lines up with what I was trying to say
Some boxes you really can’t think outside. If our universe really is Turing computable, we will never be able to concretely envision anything that isn’t Turing-computable—no matter how many levels of halting oracle hierarchy our mathematicians can talk about, we won’t be able to predict what a halting oracle would actually say, in such fashion as to experimentally discriminate it from merely computable reasoning.
I don’t think that’s different, unless it can also make infinitely many queries of the Turing oracle in finite time. Or make one query of a program of infinite length. In any case, I think it needs to perform infinite communication with the oracle.
I’ll grant that it seems likely that a universe with infinite computation capability will also have infinite communication capability using the same primitives, but I don’t think it’s a logical requirement.
Suppose the AI lives in a universe with Turing oracles. Give it one.
Again, what distinguishes a “turing oracle” from a finite oracle with a bound well above the realizable size of a computer in the universe? They are indistinguishable hypotheses. Giving a turing complete AI a turing oracle doesn’t make it capable of understanding anything more than turing complete models. The turing-transcendant part must be an integral part of the AI for it to have non-turing-complete hypotheses about the universe, and I have no idea what a turing-transcendant language looks like and even less of an idea of how to program in it.
Suppose the AI lives in a universe where infinitely many computations can be performed in finite time...
(I’m being mildly facetious here, but in the interest of casting the “coherently-thinkable” net widely.)
I don’t see how this changes the possible sense-data our AI could expect. Again, what’s the difference between infinitely many computations being performed in finite time and only the computations numbered up to a point too large for the AI to query being calculated?
If you can give me an example of a universe for which the closest turing machine model will not give indistinguishable sense-data to the AI, then perhaps this conversation can progress.
Well, for starters, an AI living in a universe where infinitely many computations can be performed in finite time can verify the responses a Turing oracle gives it. So it can determine that it lives in a universe with Turing oracles (in fact it can itself be a Turing oracle), which is not what an AI living in this universe would determine (as far as I know).
As mentioned below, we you’d need to make infinitely many queries to the Turing oracle. But even if you could, that wouldn’t make a difference.
Again, even if there was a module to do infinitely many computations, the code I wrote still couldn’t tell the difference between that being the case, and this module being a really good computable approximation of one. Again, it all comes back to the fact that I am programming my AI on a turing complete computer. Unless I somehow (personally) develop the skills to program trans-turing-complete computers, then whatever I program is only able to comprehend something that is turing complete. I am sitting down to write the AI right now, and so regardless of what I discover in the future, I can’t program my turing complete AI to understand anything beyond that. I’d have to program a trans-turing complete computer now, if I ever hoped for it to understand anything beyond turing completeness in the future.
Ah, I see. I think we were answering different questions. (I had this feeling earlier but couldn’t pin down why.) I read the original question as being something like “what kind of hypotheses should a hypothetical AI hypothetically entertain” whereas I think you read the original question as being more like “what kind of hypotheses can you currently program an AI to entertain.” Does this sound right?
Yes, I agree. I can imagine some reasoning being concieving of things that are trans-turing complete, but I don’t see how I could make an AI do so.
I was reading a lesswrong post and I found this paragraph which lines up with what I was trying to say
I don’t think that’s different, unless it can also make infinitely many queries of the Turing oracle in finite time. Or make one query of a program of infinite length. In any case, I think it needs to perform infinite communication with the oracle.
I’ll grant that it seems likely that a universe with infinite computation capability will also have infinite communication capability using the same primitives, but I don’t think it’s a logical requirement.
Yes, let’s replace “computations” with “actions,” I guess.