I don’t think you’re “dropping all effort” to signal, you’re rather getting good at signaling, by actually being truthful and information-focused. The useful signals are those which are difficult/expensive to fake and cheap(er) to display truthfully.
When you say to Bob “Let me know what you need here to make a good decision. I’ll see what I can do”, THAT is a great signal, in that it’s a request for Bob to tell you what further signals he wants, and an indication that you intend to provide them, even if they’d be difficult to fake.
I really like the insight that signaling is related to goodheart—both are problematic due to the necessity of using proxies for the actual desired outcomes. I don’t think we can go so far as to say they’re equivalent, just that signaling is yet another domain subject to goodheart’s law.
I don’t think you’re “dropping all effort” to signal, you’re rather getting good at signaling, by actually being truthful and information-focused.
…which is much more likely to fail if I think of it like this while doing it.
I agree with what I think you’re saying. I think there’s been a definitional sliding here. When I say “Drop all effort to signal”, I’m describing the experience on the inside. I think you’re saying that from the outside, signaling is still happening, and the benefits of “dropping all effort to signal” can be understood in signaling terms.
I agree with that.
I’m just suggesting that in practice, the experience on the inside is of turning attention away from signals and entirely toward a plain and simple attention on what is.
I don’t think we can go so far as to say they’re equivalent, just that signaling is yet another domain subject to goodheart’s law.
I agree. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.
(I imagine this is a reaction to the title? That was tongue-in-cheek. I said so, though maybe you missed it. It was meant to artistically gesture at the thesis in an entertaining way rather than as a truth statement accurately summarizing the point.)
Ah, that’s a very helpful clarification, and a distinction that I missed on first reading. I absolutely agree that a focus on the underlying behaviors and true good intents yields better results (both better signals and better outcomes, and most importantly, for many, is personally more satisfying) than trying to consciously work out the best signals.
I’m not sure it’s feasible to totally forget the signaling portion of your interactions—knowing about it MAY be helpful in choosing some marginal actions or statements, and it’s certainly valuable in interpreting others’ statements and behaviors. But I’m with you that the vast majority of your life should be driven by actual good intents.
I kind of wonder how much of this (and other goodheart-related topics) is a question of complexity vs legibility, seen vs unseen. When you introspect and consider signaling, there’s a pretty limited set of factors you can model and consider. When you just try to do something, there’s a lot of unspecified consideration that goes into it.
I don’t think you’re “dropping all effort” to signal, you’re rather getting good at signaling, by actually being truthful and information-focused. The useful signals are those which are difficult/expensive to fake and cheap(er) to display truthfully.
When you say to Bob “Let me know what you need here to make a good decision. I’ll see what I can do”, THAT is a great signal, in that it’s a request for Bob to tell you what further signals he wants, and an indication that you intend to provide them, even if they’d be difficult to fake.
I really like the insight that signaling is related to goodheart—both are problematic due to the necessity of using proxies for the actual desired outcomes. I don’t think we can go so far as to say they’re equivalent, just that signaling is yet another domain subject to goodheart’s law.
…which is much more likely to fail if I think of it like this while doing it.
I agree with what I think you’re saying. I think there’s been a definitional sliding here. When I say “Drop all effort to signal”, I’m describing the experience on the inside. I think you’re saying that from the outside, signaling is still happening, and the benefits of “dropping all effort to signal” can be understood in signaling terms.
I agree with that.
I’m just suggesting that in practice, the experience on the inside is of turning attention away from signals and entirely toward a plain and simple attention on what is.
I agree. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.
(I imagine this is a reaction to the title? That was tongue-in-cheek. I said so, though maybe you missed it. It was meant to artistically gesture at the thesis in an entertaining way rather than as a truth statement accurately summarizing the point.)
Ah, that’s a very helpful clarification, and a distinction that I missed on first reading. I absolutely agree that a focus on the underlying behaviors and true good intents yields better results (both better signals and better outcomes, and most importantly, for many, is personally more satisfying) than trying to consciously work out the best signals.
I’m not sure it’s feasible to totally forget the signaling portion of your interactions—knowing about it MAY be helpful in choosing some marginal actions or statements, and it’s certainly valuable in interpreting others’ statements and behaviors. But I’m with you that the vast majority of your life should be driven by actual good intents.
I kind of wonder how much of this (and other goodheart-related topics) is a question of complexity vs legibility, seen vs unseen. When you introspect and consider signaling, there’s a pretty limited set of factors you can model and consider. When you just try to do something, there’s a lot of unspecified consideration that goes into it.