Likewise, approximations to the Truth abound in the various spiritual traditions. “God exists, and is the only entity that exists. I am God, you are God, we are all one being” is one such approximation [1]. It is an approximation because the words “you” and “God” are not well-defined. My own definition of these terms has been continually evolving as I progress in spirituality.
Hm, I think there might be something really interesting here.
If I were to try to phrase this claim about God in terms of LDT’s synchronicity, and the incoherence of the notion of any metaphysical continuity between observer-moments (or, vessels of anthropic measure), would you agree that we’re talking about the same thing? (Are you familiar with these terms?)
Basically: LDT is the realisation that we should act as if our decisions will be reflected by every similarly rational agent that exists, it is one way of saying “all is one, you are not separate from others”. It could even be framed as a paraphrasing of a constrained notion of karma, in a way (“your policy will be reflected back at you by others”). What’s extraordinary about it is it says these things in the most precise, pragmatic terms.
Metaphysical continuity of measure.. you’re probably familiar with the concept even if you wouldn’t have a name for it.. like.. you know how people worry that being teleported would be a kind of death? Because there’s an interruption, a discontinuity between selves? And then one may answer, “but there is a similar, perhaps greater discontinuity every night, during sleep, but you don’t seem to fear that.” I don’t know how many of us have noticed this, I’ve met a few, but we’re starting to realise that anthropic measure, the substance of experience or subjectivity, there isn’t some special relationship between observer-moments that’re close in time and space, there’s just a magnitude, and the magnitude can change over time. If we want to draw a line connecting observer-moments, it’s artificial.
So what I’m getting at is, that substance of experience can’t really be divided into a bunch of completely separate lines of experience. If we care about one being’s experience, we should generally care about every being’s experience. We don’t have to, of course, because of the orthogonality thesis, but I think most people will once they get it.
I am familiar with the concept of superrationality, which seems similar with what you are describing. The lack of special relationship between observer moments—let’s call it non-continuity—is also a common concept in many mystical traditions. I view both of these concepts as different than the concept of unity, “we are all one”.
Superrationality combines a form of unity with a requirement for rationality. I could think that “we are all one” without thinking that we should behave rationally. If I thought, “we are all one” and and also that “one ought to be rational”, the behavior that results might be described as superrational.
Non-continuity is orthogonal to unity. I could think “we are distinct” and still think “I only exist in the moment”. This might have been the view of Heraclitus. But I could also think “we are one” and also think “we only exist in the moment.” This might be a natural view to have if you think of the universe as an amplitude distribution over a large number of quantum states that is evolving according to some transition function. If you identify with a particular quantum state, then there is no sense in which you have a unique “past” or “future” path, because all “moments” (states) are concurrent: the only thing that is changing is the amplitude flow.
This sort of “everyone who understands my ideas agrees with me, and everyone who doesn’t agree just doesn’t understand” is never not annoying, even if you tack on a “most” or “almost”. Even if the ideas you describe were perfectly sensible, it would still be highly irritating to be faced with such a smug presentation of them.
However, in this case, what you say also seems incoherent.
In particular:
LDT is the realisation that we should act as if our decisions will be reflected by every similarly rational agent that exists
In this description of LDT, the phrase “similarly rational” is being forced to do almost all the work; and it is much too vague to be up to the task. The specific claim of LDT is:
Logical decision theory asserts that the principle of rational choice is “Decide as though you are choosing the logical output of your decision algorithm.”
That is very far from any notion of karma, any notion of “all is one”, etc. So even if we find logical decision theories to be attractive, and their claims convincing, that does not get us to any of the “spiritual” claims you seem to want to make on those theories’ basis.
I don’t know how many of us have noticed this, I’ve met a few, but we’re starting to realise that anthropic measure, the substance of experience or subjectivity, there isn’t some special relationship between observer-moments that’re close in time and space, there’s just a magnitude, and the magnitude can change over time.
This does not actually seem to be a coherent sentence, much less a coherent thought, so I assume that you’ve accidentally omitted some words; I’ll comment on this once you’ve had a chance to rewrite it.
If we care about one being’s experience, we should generally care about every being’s experience.
This in absolutely no way follows from logical decision theory or anything related to it.
There are a lot of assumptions you’re making about the purpose/subtext of that comment. The comment is like, three exchanges into a conversation. It was not written for you. Its purpose was to name some ideas for snarles that they’re probably already largely familiar with. It isn’t supposed to teach or to expound enough detail that someone who didn’t know a lot of what I was talking about would be able to refute any of it. That is not what we’re doing in this thread. There is a time and place for that. Seriously, I’m probably going to have to write about this stuff properly at some point, and I hope you’ll find it precise and coherent enough to engage with without frustration, when the time comes.
We are still a long way from arriving at the “interesting” thing that I alluded to, if we’re ever going to (I’m not even totally sure I’ll be able to recover that thought).
In this description of LDT
I wasn’t really trying to give an accurate description/definition of LDT, it’s an entailment.
That is very far from any notion of karma
The easier we can make it for people to step from a superstition or a metaphor to a real formalised understanding, the better. If you say it’s a long walk, a lot of them wont set out.
This in absolutely no way follows from logical decision theory or anything related to it.
That paragraph was about anthropic measure continuity, not LDT
There are a lot of assumptions you’re making about the purpose/subtext of that comment. The comment is like, three exchanges into a conversation. It was not written for you.
I read the ancestor comments as well (and every other comment on this post, too). Whatever purpose or subtext was contained therein is available to me also, and to anyone else reading this public forum thread. If you prefer that something you write be read and responded to only by a single recipient, Less Wrong does have a private messaging system.
I wasn’t really trying to give an accurate description/definition of LDT, it’s an entailment.
What do you mean by “it’s an entailment”? What entails what?
The easier we can make it for people to step from a superstition or a metaphor to a real formalised understanding, the better. If you say it’s a long walk, a lot of them wont set out.
Are you suggesting a strategy of publicly professing positions we do not actually hold, and making claims we do not actually believe, in order to better persuade people (whom we believe to be in the grip of a supersition) to accept our ideas?
I hope I do not have to enumerate the profound problems with such a plan. I will name only one: it’s fundamentally dishonest and deceptive, and intellectually disrespectful of one’s interlocutors. I strongly urge against attempting to employ any such tactics.
Hm, I think there might be something really interesting here.
If I were to try to phrase this claim about God in terms of LDT’s synchronicity, and the incoherence of the notion of any metaphysical continuity between observer-moments (or, vessels of anthropic measure), would you agree that we’re talking about the same thing? (Are you familiar with these terms?)
LDT doesn’t seem to be an abbreviation that’s common enough to make it to Wikipedia. Can you spell it out?
I added a link https://arbital.com/p/logical_dt/?l=5gc
I am not familiar with those concepts. References would be appreciated. 🙏
I’m not sure if these articles try to convey the personal, spiritual dimension of LDT’s claims about agency, but they describe what it is https://arbital.com/p/logical_dt/?l=5gc
Basically: LDT is the realisation that we should act as if our decisions will be reflected by every similarly rational agent that exists, it is one way of saying “all is one, you are not separate from others”. It could even be framed as a paraphrasing of a constrained notion of karma, in a way (“your policy will be reflected back at you by others”). What’s extraordinary about it is it says these things in the most precise, pragmatic terms.
Metaphysical continuity of measure.. you’re probably familiar with the concept even if you wouldn’t have a name for it.. like.. you know how people worry that being teleported would be a kind of death? Because there’s an interruption, a discontinuity between selves? And then one may answer, “but there is a similar, perhaps greater discontinuity every night, during sleep, but you don’t seem to fear that.” I don’t know how many of us have noticed this, I’ve met a few, but we’re starting to realise that anthropic measure, the substance of experience or subjectivity, there isn’t some special relationship between observer-moments that’re close in time and space, there’s just a magnitude, and the magnitude can change over time. If we want to draw a line connecting observer-moments, it’s artificial.
So what I’m getting at is, that substance of experience can’t really be divided into a bunch of completely separate lines of experience. If we care about one being’s experience, we should generally care about every being’s experience. We don’t have to, of course, because of the orthogonality thesis, but I think most people will once they get it.
Thanks for the link MakoYass.
I am familiar with the concept of superrationality, which seems similar with what you are describing. The lack of special relationship between observer moments—let’s call it non-continuity—is also a common concept in many mystical traditions. I view both of these concepts as different than the concept of unity, “we are all one”.
Superrationality combines a form of unity with a requirement for rationality. I could think that “we are all one” without thinking that we should behave rationally. If I thought, “we are all one” and and also that “one ought to be rational”, the behavior that results might be described as superrational.
Non-continuity is orthogonal to unity. I could think “we are distinct” and still think “I only exist in the moment”. This might have been the view of Heraclitus. But I could also think “we are one” and also think “we only exist in the moment.” This might be a natural view to have if you think of the universe as an amplitude distribution over a large number of quantum states that is evolving according to some transition function. If you identify with a particular quantum state, then there is no sense in which you have a unique “past” or “future” path, because all “moments” (states) are concurrent: the only thing that is changing is the amplitude flow.
This sort of “everyone who understands my ideas agrees with me, and everyone who doesn’t agree just doesn’t understand” is never not annoying, even if you tack on a “most” or “almost”. Even if the ideas you describe were perfectly sensible, it would still be highly irritating to be faced with such a smug presentation of them.
However, in this case, what you say also seems incoherent.
In particular:
In this description of LDT, the phrase “similarly rational” is being forced to do almost all the work; and it is much too vague to be up to the task. The specific claim of LDT is:
(From “Introduction to Logical Decision Theory for Analytic Philosophers” on Arbital. Italics in original.)
That is very far from any notion of karma, any notion of “all is one”, etc. So even if we find logical decision theories to be attractive, and their claims convincing, that does not get us to any of the “spiritual” claims you seem to want to make on those theories’ basis.
This does not actually seem to be a coherent sentence, much less a coherent thought, so I assume that you’ve accidentally omitted some words; I’ll comment on this once you’ve had a chance to rewrite it.
This in absolutely no way follows from logical decision theory or anything related to it.
There are a lot of assumptions you’re making about the purpose/subtext of that comment. The comment is like, three exchanges into a conversation. It was not written for you. Its purpose was to name some ideas for snarles that they’re probably already largely familiar with. It isn’t supposed to teach or to expound enough detail that someone who didn’t know a lot of what I was talking about would be able to refute any of it. That is not what we’re doing in this thread. There is a time and place for that. Seriously, I’m probably going to have to write about this stuff properly at some point, and I hope you’ll find it precise and coherent enough to engage with without frustration, when the time comes.
We are still a long way from arriving at the “interesting” thing that I alluded to, if we’re ever going to (I’m not even totally sure I’ll be able to recover that thought).
I wasn’t really trying to give an accurate description/definition of LDT, it’s an entailment.
The easier we can make it for people to step from a superstition or a metaphor to a real formalised understanding, the better. If you say it’s a long walk, a lot of them wont set out.
That paragraph was about anthropic measure continuity, not LDT
I read the ancestor comments as well (and every other comment on this post, too). Whatever purpose or subtext was contained therein is available to me also, and to anyone else reading this public forum thread. If you prefer that something you write be read and responded to only by a single recipient, Less Wrong does have a private messaging system.
What do you mean by “it’s an entailment”? What entails what?
Are you suggesting a strategy of publicly professing positions we do not actually hold, and making claims we do not actually believe, in order to better persuade people (whom we believe to be in the grip of a supersition) to accept our ideas?
I hope I do not have to enumerate the profound problems with such a plan. I will name only one: it’s fundamentally dishonest and deceptive, and intellectually disrespectful of one’s interlocutors. I strongly urge against attempting to employ any such tactics.