I feel the need to offer one very minor correction:
For example, sympathetic nervous system activity, which governs the fight-or-flight response, is unpleasant, unhealthy, and can prevent you from explicitly modeling other people.
It’s actually sympathetic dominance over the parasympathetic side that does this. Both the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems are running all the time, and that’s really quite essential. You cannot stand up without the sympathetic system, for instance, nor can you lie down without going into a panic without the parasympathetic side doing its job.
But as long as you replace “activity” with “dominance,” I think we’re good!
I think you may now have the definitions mixed up. It looks like you’re saying the parasympathetic system governs fight or flight, when it’s the sympathetic system that runs fight or flight.
sympathetic nervous system dominance over the parasympathetic nervous system, which governs the fight-or-flight response, is unpleasant, …
I couldn’t figure out what the sentence was trying to say either.
Would it still be correct to say, “For example, dominance of the sympathetic nervous system (which governs the fight-or-flight response) over the parasympathetic, is unpleasant, …”?
Based on this, and your linked comment, and some quick reading of the Wikipedia articles, I’m wondering if I have an issue with my sympathetic nervous system dominating my parasympathetic nervous system. Possibly in a fairly serious way. Is there more reading I can do on this? Techniques or tests to see what’s going on or try to change it?
My suspicion is that stress/fight or fight reaction is preventing my body from properly going into maintenance and repair mode.
I was waiting for Val to answer this, but I’ll give it a shot. The relevant CFAR unit is called “againstness.” You can think of sympathetic dominance as related to (being?) a sensation of “againstness,” e.g. when you get angry during a heated argument your feelings are directed against the person you’re arguing with. Val gave us both mental and physical techniques for releasing againstness (“fighting againstness” is kind of againsty). The mental techniques (which I’m just going to quote verbatim from the worksheet; hopefully Val won’t mind):
Gratitude: appreciate the opportunity to practice releasing againstness in adverse situations. (Also, appreciate the pleasure of PNS activation to help stabilize it.)
When againstness is related to others:
Empathy: model the other person in enough detail to appreciate likely reasons why what they’re doing is, to them, the most sensible thing they could be doing in that moment.
Connection: intentionally increase your sense of tribal togetherness; see the other person as a fellow human being and wish to help them realize their full potential.
That might sound a little woo but the above is intended to be a description of specific mental algorithms that you can actually run. The physical techniques:
Open your posture. Shoulders back, spine straight & upright, head balanced on spine, belly exposed.
Breathe. Deeply, smoothly, gently, and low—without pushing it low or sucking air in.
Relax. Especially the hands, arms, shoulders, and eyes. (Smiling sometimes helps!)
I’ve found gratitude together with the physical techniques to be reasonably effective and have used them several times since the workshop already. I have not extensively tried using empathy or connection.
As for tests, one of the reasons it was valuable to learn this material at the workshop is that Val is very good at spotting the physical indicators of sympathetic dominance. Accordingly, the againstness unit had a practical component where Val or one of the other instructors would stress out participants in various ways in order for them to practice using the techniques above, and Val would diagnose to what extent the techniques were working. So testing yourself doesn’t sound easy to me. If you just want some tips for noticing when your SNS is dominant, try looking for the following:
hunched shoulders
rubbing the neck
positioning arms to protect the belly
tensed muscles
Unfortunately I don’t think it’s easy to notice that you’re doing these things.
Each of the CFAR worksheets also included a list of further resources. For the againstness unit, the further resources were the Wikipedia articles and two papers:
Fredrickson, B.L., Mancuso, R.A., Branigan, C., & Tugade, M.M. (2000). The undoing effect of positive emotions. Motivation and Emotion. 24, 237-258. http://goo.gl/AP920
Heinrichs M., von Dawans B., and Domes G. (2009). Oxytocin, vasopressin, and human social behavior. Frontiers in Neuroendocrinology, 30, 548-557. http://goo.gl/kGaz6
I’ll just add that the book What Every Body Is Saying is quite good at illustrating what various ways of addressing SNS dominance look like. The author frames it in terms of “limbic activity,” but it’s basically the same beast. There are a few details in that book I’m not convinced of (e.g., I haven’t been able to use people’s feet as an indicator of their honest intentions), but the majority is quite good and can make it easier for you to look for important cues that others are sending you about their states.
Really? I’m not so sure. Sympathetic nervous system activity isn’t necessarily unpleasant or unhealthy. It’s what makes you sweat and have a fast heart rate when exercising. It’s very unhealthy not to have that!
But if others interpret Qiaochu’s comment in a way that accurately reflects reality, then the fact that it’s different than how I read it is not terribly relevant. I was only concerned that some here might come away with a mistaken idea of what the message of that particular CFAR unit was. If there are no such mistakes, then all is good!
Thank you for writing up your thoughts, Qiaochu!
I feel the need to offer one very minor correction:
It’s actually sympathetic dominance over the parasympathetic side that does this. Both the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems are running all the time, and that’s really quite essential. You cannot stand up without the sympathetic system, for instance, nor can you lie down without going into a panic without the parasympathetic side doing its job.
But as long as you replace “activity” with “dominance,” I think we’re good!
Thanks! Corrected.
I think you may now have the definitions mixed up. It looks like you’re saying the parasympathetic system governs fight or flight, when it’s the sympathetic system that runs fight or flight.
The phrase is “sympathetic nervous system dominance over the parasympathetic nervous system.”
In its current form,
I couldn’t figure out what the sentence was trying to say either.
Would it still be correct to say, “For example, dominance of the sympathetic nervous system (which governs the fight-or-flight response) over the parasympathetic, is unpleasant, …”?
That’s probably less confusing. Thanks! Edited.
Based on this, and your linked comment, and some quick reading of the Wikipedia articles, I’m wondering if I have an issue with my sympathetic nervous system dominating my parasympathetic nervous system. Possibly in a fairly serious way. Is there more reading I can do on this? Techniques or tests to see what’s going on or try to change it?
My suspicion is that stress/fight or fight reaction is preventing my body from properly going into maintenance and repair mode.
I was waiting for Val to answer this, but I’ll give it a shot. The relevant CFAR unit is called “againstness.” You can think of sympathetic dominance as related to (being?) a sensation of “againstness,” e.g. when you get angry during a heated argument your feelings are directed against the person you’re arguing with. Val gave us both mental and physical techniques for releasing againstness (“fighting againstness” is kind of againsty). The mental techniques (which I’m just going to quote verbatim from the worksheet; hopefully Val won’t mind):
Gratitude: appreciate the opportunity to practice releasing againstness in adverse situations. (Also, appreciate the pleasure of PNS activation to help stabilize it.)
When againstness is related to others:
Empathy: model the other person in enough detail to appreciate likely reasons why what they’re doing is, to them, the most sensible thing they could be doing in that moment.
Connection: intentionally increase your sense of tribal togetherness; see the other person as a fellow human being and wish to help them realize their full potential.
That might sound a little woo but the above is intended to be a description of specific mental algorithms that you can actually run. The physical techniques:
Open your posture. Shoulders back, spine straight & upright, head balanced on spine, belly exposed.
Breathe. Deeply, smoothly, gently, and low—without pushing it low or sucking air in.
Relax. Especially the hands, arms, shoulders, and eyes. (Smiling sometimes helps!)
I’ve found gratitude together with the physical techniques to be reasonably effective and have used them several times since the workshop already. I have not extensively tried using empathy or connection.
As for tests, one of the reasons it was valuable to learn this material at the workshop is that Val is very good at spotting the physical indicators of sympathetic dominance. Accordingly, the againstness unit had a practical component where Val or one of the other instructors would stress out participants in various ways in order for them to practice using the techniques above, and Val would diagnose to what extent the techniques were working. So testing yourself doesn’t sound easy to me. If you just want some tips for noticing when your SNS is dominant, try looking for the following:
hunched shoulders
rubbing the neck
positioning arms to protect the belly
tensed muscles
Unfortunately I don’t think it’s easy to notice that you’re doing these things.
Each of the CFAR worksheets also included a list of further resources. For the againstness unit, the further resources were the Wikipedia articles and two papers:
Well said!
I’ll just add that the book What Every Body Is Saying is quite good at illustrating what various ways of addressing SNS dominance look like. The author frames it in terms of “limbic activity,” but it’s basically the same beast. There are a few details in that book I’m not convinced of (e.g., I haven’t been able to use people’s feet as an indicator of their honest intentions), but the majority is quite good and can make it easier for you to look for important cues that others are sending you about their states.
Thanks for taking the time to put together such a complete response. Lots for me to think about and read up on here.
The statement as he made it is correct, you are not correcting it but making a narrower, also correct, version of his statement.
(I think I need to gzip that sentence.)
Really? I’m not so sure. Sympathetic nervous system activity isn’t necessarily unpleasant or unhealthy. It’s what makes you sweat and have a fast heart rate when exercising. It’s very unhealthy not to have that!
But if others interpret Qiaochu’s comment in a way that accurately reflects reality, then the fact that it’s different than how I read it is not terribly relevant. I was only concerned that some here might come away with a mistaken idea of what the message of that particular CFAR unit was. If there are no such mistakes, then all is good!