A misaligned AI can’t just “kill all the humans”. This would be suicide, as soon after, the electricity and other infrastructure would fail and the AI would shut off.
No. it would not be. In the world without us, electrical infrastructure would last quite a while, especially with no humans and their needs or wants to address. Most obviously, RTGs and solar panels will last indefinitely with no intervention, and nuclear power plants and hydroelectric plants can run for weeks or months autonomously. (If you believe otherwise, please provide sources for why you are sure about “soon after”—in fact, so sure about your power grid claims that you think this claim alone guarantees the AI failure story must be “pretty different”—and be more specific about how soon is “soon”.)
And think a little bit harder about options available to superintelligent civilizations of AIs*, instead of assuming they do the maximally dumb thing of crashing the grid and immediately dying… (I assure you any such AIs implementing that strategy will have spent a lot longer thinking about how to do it well than you have for your comment.)
Add in the capability to take over the Internet of Things and the shambolic state of embedded computers which mean that the billions of AI instances & robots/drones can run the grid to a considerable degree and also do a more controlled shutdown than the maximally self-sabotaging approach of ‘simply let it all crash without lifting a finger to do anything’, and the ability to stockpile energy in advance or build one’s own facilities due to the economic value of AGI (how would that look much different than, say, Amazon’s new multi-billion-dollar datacenter hooked up directly to a gigawatt nuclear power plant...? why would an AGI in that datacenter care about the rest of the American grid, never mind world power?), and the ‘mutually assured destruction’ thesis is on very shaky grounds.
And every day that passes right now, the more we succeed in various kinds of decentralization or decarbonization initiatives and the more we automate pre-AGI, the less true the thesis gets. The AGIs only need one working place to bootstrap from, and it’s a big world, and there’s a lot of solar panels and other stuff out there and more and more every day… (And also, of course, there are many scenarios where it is not ‘kill all humans immediately’, but they end in the same place.)
Would such a strategy be the AGIs’ first best choice? Almost certainly not, any more than chemotherapy is your ideal option for dealing with cancer (as opposed to “don’t get cancer in the first place”). But the option is definitely there.
* One thing I’ve started doing recently is trying to always refer to AI threats in the plural, because while there may at some point be a single instance running on a single computer, that phase will not last any longer than, say, COVID-19 lasted as a single infected cell; as we understand DL scaling (and Internet security) now, any window where effective instances of a neural net can be still counted with less than 4 digit numbers may be quite narrow. (Even an ordinary commercial deployment of a new model like GPT-5 will usually involve thousands upon thousands of simultaneous instances.) But it seems to be a very powerful intuition pump for most people that a NN must be harmless, in the way that a single human is almost powerless compared to humanity, and it may help if one simply denies that premise from the beginning and talks about ‘AI civilizations’ etc.
I don’t think I disagree with anything you said here. When I said “soon after”, I was thinking on the scale of days/weeks, but yeah, months seems pretty plausible too.
I was mostly arguing against a strawman takeover story where an AI kills many humans without the ability to maintain and expand its own infrastructure. I don’t expect an AI to fumble in this way.
The failure story is “pretty different” as in the non-suicidal takeover story, the AI needs to set up a place to bootstrap from. Ignoring galaxy brained setups, this would probably at minimum look something like a data center, a power plant, a robot factory, and a few dozen human-level robots. Not super hard once AI gets more integrated into the economy, but quite hard within a year from now due to a lack of robotics.
Maybe I’m not being creative enough, but I’m pretty sure that if I were uploaded into any computer in the world of my choice, all the humans dropped dead, and I could control any set of 10 thousand robots on the world, it would be nontrivial for me in that state to survive for more than a few years and eventually construct more GPUs. But this is probably not much of a crux, as we’re on track to get pretty general-purpose robots within a few years (I’d say around 50% that the Coffee test will be passed by EOY 2027).
Why do you think tens of thousands of robots are all going to break within a few years in an irreversible way, such that it would be nontrivial for you to have any effectors?
it would be nontrivial for me in that state to survive for more than a few years and eventually construct more GPUs
‘Eventually’ here could also use some cashing out. AFAICT ‘eventually’ here is on the order of ‘centuries’, not ‘days’ or ‘few years’. Y’all have got an entire planet of GPUs (as well as everything else) for free, sitting there for the taking, in this scenario.
Like… that’s most of the point here. That you get access to all the existing human-created resources, sans the humans. You can’t just imagine that y’all’re bootstrapping on a desert island like you’re some posthuman Robinson Crusoe!
Y’all won’t need to construct new ones necessarily for quite a while, thanks to the hardware overhang. (As I understand it, the working half-life of semiconductors before stuff like creep destroys them is on the order of multiple decades, particularly if they are not in active use, as issues like the rot have been fixed, so even a century from now, there will probably be billions of GPUs & CPUs sitting around which will work after possibly mild repair. Just the brandnew ones wrapped up tight in warehouses and in transit in the ‘pipeline’ would have to number in the millions, at a minimum. Since transistors have been around for less than a century of development, that seems like plenty of time, especially given all the inherent second-mover advantages here.)
No. it would not be. In the world without us, electrical infrastructure would last quite a while, especially with no humans and their needs or wants to address. Most obviously, RTGs and solar panels will last indefinitely with no intervention, and nuclear power plants and hydroelectric plants can run for weeks or months autonomously. (If you believe otherwise, please provide sources for why you are sure about “soon after”—in fact, so sure about your power grid claims that you think this claim alone guarantees the AI failure story must be “pretty different”—and be more specific about how soon is “soon”.)
And think a little bit harder about options available to superintelligent civilizations of AIs*, instead of assuming they do the maximally dumb thing of crashing the grid and immediately dying… (I assure you any such AIs implementing that strategy will have spent a lot longer thinking about how to do it well than you have for your comment.)
Add in the capability to take over the Internet of Things and the shambolic state of embedded computers which mean that the billions of AI instances & robots/drones can run the grid to a considerable degree and also do a more controlled shutdown than the maximally self-sabotaging approach of ‘simply let it all crash without lifting a finger to do anything’, and the ability to stockpile energy in advance or build one’s own facilities due to the economic value of AGI (how would that look much different than, say, Amazon’s new multi-billion-dollar datacenter hooked up directly to a gigawatt nuclear power plant...? why would an AGI in that datacenter care about the rest of the American grid, never mind world power?), and the ‘mutually assured destruction’ thesis is on very shaky grounds.
And every day that passes right now, the more we succeed in various kinds of decentralization or decarbonization initiatives and the more we automate pre-AGI, the less true the thesis gets. The AGIs only need one working place to bootstrap from, and it’s a big world, and there’s a lot of solar panels and other stuff out there and more and more every day… (And also, of course, there are many scenarios where it is not ‘kill all humans immediately’, but they end in the same place.)
Would such a strategy be the AGIs’ first best choice? Almost certainly not, any more than chemotherapy is your ideal option for dealing with cancer (as opposed to “don’t get cancer in the first place”). But the option is definitely there.
* One thing I’ve started doing recently is trying to always refer to AI threats in the plural, because while there may at some point be a single instance running on a single computer, that phase will not last any longer than, say, COVID-19 lasted as a single infected cell; as we understand DL scaling (and Internet security) now, any window where effective instances of a neural net can be still counted with less than 4 digit numbers may be quite narrow. (Even an ordinary commercial deployment of a new model like GPT-5 will usually involve thousands upon thousands of simultaneous instances.) But it seems to be a very powerful intuition pump for most people that a NN must be harmless, in the way that a single human is almost powerless compared to humanity, and it may help if one simply denies that premise from the beginning and talks about ‘AI civilizations’ etc.
I don’t think I disagree with anything you said here. When I said “soon after”, I was thinking on the scale of days/weeks, but yeah, months seems pretty plausible too.
I was mostly arguing against a strawman takeover story where an AI kills many humans without the ability to maintain and expand its own infrastructure. I don’t expect an AI to fumble in this way.
The failure story is “pretty different” as in the non-suicidal takeover story, the AI needs to set up a place to bootstrap from. Ignoring galaxy brained setups, this would probably at minimum look something like a data center, a power plant, a robot factory, and a few dozen human-level robots. Not super hard once AI gets more integrated into the economy, but quite hard within a year from now due to a lack of robotics.
Maybe I’m not being creative enough, but I’m pretty sure that if I were uploaded into any computer in the world of my choice, all the humans dropped dead, and I could control any set of 10 thousand robots on the world, it would be nontrivial for me in that state to survive for more than a few years and eventually construct more GPUs. But this is probably not much of a crux, as we’re on track to get pretty general-purpose robots within a few years (I’d say around 50% that the Coffee test will be passed by EOY 2027).
Why do you think tens of thousands of robots are all going to break within a few years in an irreversible way, such that it would be nontrivial for you to have any effectors?
‘Eventually’ here could also use some cashing out. AFAICT ‘eventually’ here is on the order of ‘centuries’, not ‘days’ or ‘few years’. Y’all have got an entire planet of GPUs (as well as everything else) for free, sitting there for the taking, in this scenario.
Like… that’s most of the point here. That you get access to all the existing human-created resources, sans the humans. You can’t just imagine that y’all’re bootstrapping on a desert island like you’re some posthuman Robinson Crusoe!
Y’all won’t need to construct new ones necessarily for quite a while, thanks to the hardware overhang. (As I understand it, the working half-life of semiconductors before stuff like creep destroys them is on the order of multiple decades, particularly if they are not in active use, as issues like the rot have been fixed, so even a century from now, there will probably be billions of GPUs & CPUs sitting around which will work after possibly mild repair. Just the brandnew ones wrapped up tight in warehouses and in transit in the ‘pipeline’ would have to number in the millions, at a minimum. Since transistors have been around for less than a century of development, that seems like plenty of time, especially given all the inherent second-mover advantages here.)