Ah, got it. By the way, I like the “low in search order” concept you mentioned above. This is similar to something I just noticed about this theory, which is that puns that are closer to what we already think (like for example, seeing “ass” in the word Association), are less effective than ones that are further down. I think this has to do with what we label as a joke being “too easy” and thus not as funny. Or I guess a pun being too easy.
Anyway...the third joke.
This “kets” joke is a bit more difficult for me to analyze since, as a non-physicist, I don’t know the terms...so I don’t have access to my own instinct to test the reaction. I can analyze why I DON’T laugh much easier than why I would. However, I think I can say a couple things from what I think would be funny if I did get it.
I think you’re right, first of all, that we KNOW a joke is coming (though I think we agree that in most cases it’s more effective when we don’t know it’s coming). But we know it’s coming and I think for people who know the terms it will still have humor.
In this case, I think that what’s important is that we don’t know WHAT the joke will be, even when we know it’s coming. Like being in the dark and fighting, you may KNOW a punch is coming, but if you don’t know from where, it can still catch you off-guard.
Now, I think this is a “layered effect”, but almost superficially. I mean it takes the form of presenting an imaginable scenario of someone doing something very wrong (burning her ket). But that image doesn’t immediately spring to mind for me. Maybe if I knew the term though, it would. Is a bracket/ket printed on a piece of paper? I think that would make it more imaginable (valid by the topic theory) and funnier.
But beyond that, I think it’s also largely a pun. Just as you COULD potentially picture the girl’s error, the joke-teller is making an error themselves by putting a word where it’s not supposed to be.
This is a minor error of course, so it’s a situation where I’d like to have it be a joke where I myself laugh so I can see just how hard I laugh at it. I would think it would be a small chuckle. In the theory though, there are ways to make puns more and less funny, but I don’t want to swamp you with too much text.
Is that enough of an explanation? Should we look for spots where the theories might disagree? Like applying them to conventional sayings? I feel like that’s one of the strengths of this topic theory.
The thing is, with a pure ‘surprise’ interpretation, it doesn’t matter that you know there’s a joke. There can’t be any preparation—there will be a large deviation from expectations because the possibilities are all over the place. If you focus ‘quality’, then you can get a good estimate in advance and end up with a small difference.
You can have two very different ideas of very similar quality. Your theory predicts that finding one instead of the other can’t be funny. That seems off to me.
OH, okay I think I get it. You’re saying that we might expect to find A, but instead find B in its place, and be may not actually be a bad thing, therefore it’s not necessarily a sign of low-quality and this seems odd given the theory? Since “kets” isn’t necessarily a stupid thing in and of itself?
In that case, the act of misplacement can be an error even if the thing that’s incorrectly there isn’t a foolish thing. Like for example, let’s say someone signs up for a speech by John Edward, thinking it’s the psychic medium, and he wants to investigate. Instead when he gets there, it turns out to be the ex-presidential candidate John Edwards.
In this case, John Edwards, the presidential candidate, is more respectable (IMO) then John Edward, but you still might laugh at the error, simply because it was still you not ending up where you intended to be.
Now, if this is the issue (it may not be, if I misunderstood please clarify), I think the reason is that misplacement, including puns, are often found in “layered humor,” where you can detect other signs of error or foolishness or low-quality by the people involved, along WITH the misplacement. You see this a lot in jokes and humor because it’s extra funny.
For example, someone might mistake one button for another on the elevator in a way that’s funny...and AS A RESULT have the elevator close on their foot while they’re trying to leave and make them fall. This is a layered misplacement joke that leads to further physical failure.
You’ll see that MUCH more often, because misplacement by itself isn’t as funny...BUT a simple misplacement can still be funny. It’s like hamburger patty. You can eat it without the bun and the lettuce and tomato...but you don’t see that happening very often.
If this isn’t the issue you’re bringing up, I apologize and maybe you can clarify for me.
I guess I just see this broad wide open polydimensional space of ideas and humor, and you’re condensing it down into a single line. It just doesn’t seem right.
...a single line that expresses itself in a broad wide open polydimensional space of ideas and humor. In the second paper we listed 40 examples of different “blooms” from this single seed. There are countless more.
I don’t think this is unprecedented at all. Take the Theory of Evolution. It’s amazing to me (and of course what we’re discussing is even just a small slice of its results). The whole of Evolution is also a single line (variation and selection) that expresses itself in thousands and even millions of ways.
Ah, got it. By the way, I like the “low in search order” concept you mentioned above. This is similar to something I just noticed about this theory, which is that puns that are closer to what we already think (like for example, seeing “ass” in the word Association), are less effective than ones that are further down. I think this has to do with what we label as a joke being “too easy” and thus not as funny. Or I guess a pun being too easy.
Anyway...the third joke.
This “kets” joke is a bit more difficult for me to analyze since, as a non-physicist, I don’t know the terms...so I don’t have access to my own instinct to test the reaction. I can analyze why I DON’T laugh much easier than why I would. However, I think I can say a couple things from what I think would be funny if I did get it.
I think you’re right, first of all, that we KNOW a joke is coming (though I think we agree that in most cases it’s more effective when we don’t know it’s coming). But we know it’s coming and I think for people who know the terms it will still have humor.
In this case, I think that what’s important is that we don’t know WHAT the joke will be, even when we know it’s coming. Like being in the dark and fighting, you may KNOW a punch is coming, but if you don’t know from where, it can still catch you off-guard.
Now, I think this is a “layered effect”, but almost superficially. I mean it takes the form of presenting an imaginable scenario of someone doing something very wrong (burning her ket). But that image doesn’t immediately spring to mind for me. Maybe if I knew the term though, it would. Is a bracket/ket printed on a piece of paper? I think that would make it more imaginable (valid by the topic theory) and funnier.
But beyond that, I think it’s also largely a pun. Just as you COULD potentially picture the girl’s error, the joke-teller is making an error themselves by putting a word where it’s not supposed to be.
This is a minor error of course, so it’s a situation where I’d like to have it be a joke where I myself laugh so I can see just how hard I laugh at it. I would think it would be a small chuckle. In the theory though, there are ways to make puns more and less funny, but I don’t want to swamp you with too much text.
Is that enough of an explanation? Should we look for spots where the theories might disagree? Like applying them to conventional sayings? I feel like that’s one of the strengths of this topic theory.
The thing is, with a pure ‘surprise’ interpretation, it doesn’t matter that you know there’s a joke. There can’t be any preparation—there will be a large deviation from expectations because the possibilities are all over the place. If you focus ‘quality’, then you can get a good estimate in advance and end up with a small difference.
I’m pretty sure I agree with what you’re saying, but I don’t know exactly what you’re referring to with this paragraph.
You can have two very different ideas of very similar quality. Your theory predicts that finding one instead of the other can’t be funny. That seems off to me.
OH, okay I think I get it. You’re saying that we might expect to find A, but instead find B in its place, and be may not actually be a bad thing, therefore it’s not necessarily a sign of low-quality and this seems odd given the theory? Since “kets” isn’t necessarily a stupid thing in and of itself?
In that case, the act of misplacement can be an error even if the thing that’s incorrectly there isn’t a foolish thing. Like for example, let’s say someone signs up for a speech by John Edward, thinking it’s the psychic medium, and he wants to investigate. Instead when he gets there, it turns out to be the ex-presidential candidate John Edwards.
In this case, John Edwards, the presidential candidate, is more respectable (IMO) then John Edward, but you still might laugh at the error, simply because it was still you not ending up where you intended to be.
Now, if this is the issue (it may not be, if I misunderstood please clarify), I think the reason is that misplacement, including puns, are often found in “layered humor,” where you can detect other signs of error or foolishness or low-quality by the people involved, along WITH the misplacement. You see this a lot in jokes and humor because it’s extra funny.
For example, someone might mistake one button for another on the elevator in a way that’s funny...and AS A RESULT have the elevator close on their foot while they’re trying to leave and make them fall. This is a layered misplacement joke that leads to further physical failure.
You’ll see that MUCH more often, because misplacement by itself isn’t as funny...BUT a simple misplacement can still be funny. It’s like hamburger patty. You can eat it without the bun and the lettuce and tomato...but you don’t see that happening very often.
If this isn’t the issue you’re bringing up, I apologize and maybe you can clarify for me.
I guess I just see this broad wide open polydimensional space of ideas and humor, and you’re condensing it down into a single line. It just doesn’t seem right.
...a single line that expresses itself in a broad wide open polydimensional space of ideas and humor. In the second paper we listed 40 examples of different “blooms” from this single seed. There are countless more.
I don’t think this is unprecedented at all. Take the Theory of Evolution. It’s amazing to me (and of course what we’re discussing is even just a small slice of its results). The whole of Evolution is also a single line (variation and selection) that expresses itself in thousands and even millions of ways.
I’ll continue thinking about what you’ve said.